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Author Topic: competence for trad climber  (Read 2482 times)

lucky luke

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competence for trad climber
« on: June 28, 2012, 09:18:25 AM »

On rescuer death thread, Pappy said: “Especially in the big mountains we take our lives into our own hands, and that's our choice. But with that choice come the responsibility to be competent and accept the consequences.[…] we should all help pass on some of our knowledge and awareness to future climbers. So, you understand why I ask the question: what is a competent trad climber?

On the same thread, Steve Frechette resume competence like that:“You think that people are advancing too fast in the sport of climbing. Maybe from the increase and access to rock gymns and sport climbing? You see the value in learning how to be a well rounded climber. Know how to layback, jam, crimp stem and Place pro, since these techniques allow you to progress and conserve energy for bigger moves later. I also think you are saying that experience in other areas is essential to being a survivor of the mountain, things like being able to read conditions, self arrest, techniques for extracting someone from a ledge, or crevasse”.
After that there is another discussion where the guy asked for information on Pinacle gully. He want to teach to a co-worker how to put in some pro…is it all the knowledge that he need?!! The leader present a handful of climb that he did and think that he can teach to someone else (bringing a partner into the wild and teaching is two think for me)

The worse is that those two mentality exist and fight against each other. When you read mountaineering freedom of the hill, first to fifth edition, the book is like the description of Frechette, a bible, with all the technique good and bad that you have to learn. On the later edition, it is more a story book on a co-worker bringing his friend on the mountain using good procedure in perfect condition. Dman have that approach and I have the other, the reason of our conflict. For me, threading a wire nuts with a sling is bad, but if there is too much rope drag and you can’t do the last move…thread it.
 
How can we learn the competence to decide between two situations: safe and dangerous? It is not quite different than deciding between two techniques.  All techniques are very simple. Plug in pro in a route like nutcrackers at cathedral, whit good stance and a pro eating crack…it is not a competence. Knowing your reaction when your three last pro pulls out because of rope drag and you can fall to your death, that his a competences that you must learn. If you panick under stress, it is not good. A competent leader will stay concentrate even if he show some sign of stress. Should we bring a trad beginner climbing pinnacle, where he will see all the danger: climbing schedule, weather, fall factor, pro belay, how he can bail on rap, etc or should we teach him competence in a route of 60 feet, similar to a sport route, where the only difference is that you plug in a cam, because it is easier than nuts, in the rock?   
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M_Sprague

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 01:31:07 PM »

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meclimber

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 01:45:04 PM »

Man champo, I try to stay out of these things.  Especially after you tried to continue a conversation in email with me.  But damn, do you ever get tired of reading what you write!?!  Why can't you ask about conditions, bitch about bolts, and spray about what you got on last weekend like the rest of us.  I feel like every post is exactly the same and has nothing to do with the language barrier.  I feel like we're getting Quebecois trolled...

Flame on please...
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Jon Howard

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 03:08:05 PM »

When I climb, I decide what is the reason why I climb the rock? Many climbers who go to the cliff to do so because they look, and say that I can do that. But not everyone climbs like me. I asked a climber who was there below the cliff which is why it climbs? Because without the right technique, he says when you have something later, it will climb a cliff. Can I ask a question? I ask because I want to learn climbing and is learning, but it's something I have said already if you read carefully. Most climbers do not go the same way, I climb but they do not go up because the same reason, and that's ok. But sometimes I do not climb because of the reasons I think I do. Sometimes I go up because the climb is the rock and the rock is the climb. Did you know? I did not when I started climbing, but that's ok because the climb and a route such as routes that are trad climbs where I climb. To me, that's why I climb, but it is not perhaps the same reason that when you climb both the climb there should be an agreement that the other person is on the climb. How can you tell what a person is on the climb if another person is different climbing? It is not fair to say that I think.

X position.
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lucky luke

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 06:50:31 PM »

Man champo, I try to stay out of these things.  Especially after you tried to continue a conversation in email with me.  But damn, do you ever get tired of reading what you write!?!  Why can't you ask about conditions, bitch about bolts, and spray about what you got on last weekend like the rest of us.

It is in beginer section and some of them don't know about climbing. If Pappy talk about competency, we should know what it is. The second paragraphe gave some example of what it is for a beginer trad climber, of course, it is not a conversation with you (I don't remember it if we talk togheter), it is for beginer.

I am concern about safety and I climb so many times, in so many conditions that I don't like to talk aboout it. It is fun when some people bring epic at a good time, but nothing more. I have the competency to make my dreams a reality and I climbed in remote area where the closest person was miles away from me. I think that to be a leader, I must have a knowledge to anticipate most situation and bring my party to challenge themselve. Some time, I am the stronger climber, but not the leader of the party.

How can it be possible if I am in the sharp end of the rope and I am not the leader. For some people, which this thread is address, they like to be able to discuss those thing. But because people hijack every time what I said and try to ridiculise what I am saying, I should repeat against and against the same thing...hopping that this one will be the good one.

If you prefer to bitch on bolt or talk about condition...!!! don't read me! don't care about what I am saying! If you answer some thing, it is because you have some interest in it. 

 
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DLottmann

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 06:59:49 PM »

I was half hoping everyone would just ignore the thread... but here we are...

Fresh... +1 for sure...

OK... I’ll bite... yet again...

"On the later edition, it is more a story book on a co-worker bringing his friend on the mountain using good procedure in perfect condition. Dman have that approach and I have the other, the reason of our conflict.”

What EXACTLY do you mean by this? What is my approach?
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hobbsj

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2012, 10:11:32 PM »

I thought this was the beginner section, as in "hey, what do you all think of this since I'm new?" and not the soapbox section.

Champ, I disagree with most of what you say on so many levels, get tired of how Freedom of the Hills is more sacred than the bible, and the fact you make it sound like you have a grudge against Krakauer like he stole you wife and kids.  But, it makes for fun reading and you likely feel the same about a lot of other people.  Welcome to an online forum, and this is all part of the fun and games that have all of us checking back several times a day.  But, this is really over the top and obviously not the right place.  How can a newbie come on here and ask a simple question in the appropriate place when you turn this in to another preaching arena?  You have your thought and opinions as do I,  but how about we leave the newbie area as a place for newbie questions and not start philosophical threads.

On a separate note, dude I know American...er.. I mean English :-) is not your primary language.  How about a spelling/grammar check before posting here?  Even if it can get closer to your true intention without having to be grammar police correct.  I think a lot of your thoughts that could be interesting get lost or misunderstood and as a result, when you have something new and interesting, it gets overlooked because we see stuff we know we can pick at from experience.  Just a thought to facilitate better conversation.
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lucky luke

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 10:40:02 PM »

"On the later edition, it is more a story book on a co-worker bringing his friend on the mountain using good procedure in perfect condition. Dman have that approach and I have the other, the reason of our conflict.”

What EXACTLY do you mean by this? What is my approach?
You give very good advice, tell them to avoid the danger by not climbing when it is windy or chances of rain, tye in when there is a risk of fall, etc...Those who made the six, seven and eight edition of mountaineering are good climber and they do it for the best. When you follow those advice and you find perfect condition, it is perfect.

If you compare gypsy with recompense at cathedral, recompense his alway in better condition than gypsy and see more climber. But the quality and diversity of the move on gypsi is also very interesting. Gypsi is not in good condition, there is some dirt and it is a little bit hard to protect with cam. In fact, all route that are not in perfect condition are less travel. The grade of the route was lower to allow more people to climb a 5.10 route even if they can not say the difference between a 5.9 or a 5.10 other way than reading a book because it is sugestive. To that point, all is perfect...and I won't say any thing

When we climb in remote area (mt washington or other) we often have condition that are not perfect. And it is not always possible to avoid it. As I said using a sling around a nuts, it is a bad thing, but it could be better than nothing if the pro pop up because of rope movement. This is bad technique use in a good situation. All those aspect of climbing, that a leader most know when they climb, are not teach any more. You climb on bolt (I didn't say sport voluntary) you are confident, you climb nut crackers, place a lot of pro, you are an invincible 5.10, you climb british where coming at canon, a 5.8, and there is good chance that you died. In secret of the notch, I think, they describe it as a 5.8 for 5.10 climber, very dangerous and scary. Althought the crux is wonderfull and worth the climb...for a 5.10 climber (two belay link to make one,three or four nuts each belay and still, I was nervous of it solidity) I am not going to climb it a second time. Someone told me that it is like going in bike, you make a turn slowly, it is o.k., you make it faster, you did it, and you try to go at maximum speed and you are at the hospital. In climbing that sequence from easier to harder bring you at the hospital.

How can we avoid that people learn just what they need to be able to do a route? Some ask a description of the crux and beta to made it.nthat it an ethic and I respect them. Trad beginers have to understand that to be competent, they most know many techniques to be a survivor of the mountain. if a beginer want to do classic, route in perfect condition, just follow the good standard way to climb. if you want to onsight and do route rarely done, learn more. In doing it, you will see that knowing the clouds are important for trad climber as they can predict the weather with it. it take times to learn it and to see how fast it can change in the mountain. A climber most know that it is a part of trad climbing and he most be able to aid climb, climb on a rope, measure the fall factor, help an injure leader, eat and drink enought, have the good clothes, predict the time car to car, etc.  I saw two quebec climber guetting out of the wood on canon, they miss the trail...it was midnight, with bugs and scratch on their legs every where.   

 
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lucky luke

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 10:53:19 PM »

I thought this was the beginner section, as in "hey, what do you all think of this since I'm new?" and not the soapbox section.

I just make a citation of pappy:

 
Quote
we should all help pass on some of our knowledge and awareness to future climbers

 beginer is our futur climber!
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sneoh

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 11:01:01 PM »

Still a soapbox no matter how you cut it.

As a counter. I think I just might start a soapbox about how can/should crimp climb to greatness! :)  Right Champ?
Just kidding, I don't crimp much anymore.
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DLottmann

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2012, 11:02:23 PM »

"On the later edition, it is more a story book on a co-worker bringing his friend on the mountain using good procedure in perfect condition. Dman have that approach and I have the other, the reason of our conflict.”

What EXACTLY do you mean by this? What is my approach?
You give very good advice, tell them to avoid the danger by not climbing when it is windy or chances of rain, tye in when there is a risk of fall, etc...Those who made the six, seven and eight edition of mountaineering are good climber and they do it for the best. When you follow those advice and you find perfect condition, it is perfect.

If you compare gypsy with recompense at cathedral, recompense his alway in better condition than gypsy and see more climber. But the quality and diversity of the move on gypsi is also very interesting. Gypsi is not in good condition, there is some dirt and it is a little bit hard to protect with cam. In fact, all route that are not in perfect condition are less travel. The grade of the route was lower to allow more people to climb a 5.10 route even if they can not say the difference between a 5.9 or a 5.10 other way than reading a book because it is sugestive. To that point, all is perfect...and I won't say any thing

When we climb in remote area (mt washington or other) we often have condition that are not perfect. And it is not always possible to avoid it. As I said using a sling around a nuts, it is a bad thing, but it could be better than nothing if the pro pop up because of rope movement. This is bad technique use in a good situation. All those aspect of climbing, that a leader most know when they climb, are not teach any more. You climb on bolt (I didn't say sport voluntary) you are confident, you climb nut crackers, place a lot of pro, you are an invincible 5.10, you climb british where coming at canon, a 5.8, and there is good chance that you died. In secret of the notch, I think, they describe it as a 5.8 for 5.10 climber, very dangerous and scary. Althought the crux is wonderfull and worth the climb...for a 5.10 climber (two belay link to make one,three or four nuts each belay and still, I was nervous of it solidity) I am not going to climb it a second time. Someone told me that it is like going in bike, you make a turn slowly, it is o.k., you make it faster, you did it, and you try to go at maximum speed and you are at the hospital. In climbing that sequence from easier to harder bring you at the hospital.

How can we avoid that people learn just what they need to be able to do a route? Some ask a description of the crux and beta to made it.nthat it an ethic and I respect them. Trad beginers have to understand that to be competent, they most know many techniques to be a survivor of the mountain. if a beginer want to do classic, route in perfect condition, just follow the good standard way to climb. if you want to onsight and do route rarely done, learn more. In doing it, you will see that knowing the clouds are important for trad climber as they can predict the weather with it. it take times to learn it and to see how fast it can change in the mountain. A climber most know that it is a part of trad climbing and he most be able to aid climb, climb on a rope, measure the fall factor, help an injure leader, eat and drink enought, have the good clothes, predict the time car to car, etc.  I saw two quebec climber guetting out of the wood on canon, they miss the trail...it was midnight, with bugs and scratch on their legs every where.

OKAY... we are not so different you and I. However you put words in my mouth like “don’t climb when windy or rain, or risk of fall”. That is total bullshit. I said “Don’t climb in High Avalanche Danger”, and you said “I must experience avalanche to train for avalanche”. It’s not the same thing. I climb in the wind and rain all the time.

I agree with most the rest of your post. Trad climbers must prepare for anything. It’s one of the reasons I dislike seeing backpacks left at the base of multi-pitch routes by slow moving parties. Do they not need water/food/jacket higher on the climb? If 5.7 that hard with a backpack on?

You and I agree on quite a bit. The conflict comes from the painfully repeated rhetoric (look it up please) that your posts comprise, and while they make perfect sense in your head to the English speaking new climber they are not gaining and valuable tidbits of information.

We also have conflict because you often make statements that guides “teach fear” or tell people only to climb when it is perfect... and that is so far from reality. We teach risk management so you can push yourself harder and longer on routes closer to your ability when balanced with your own personal risk acceptance. We teach about actual risk vrs. perceived risk, which you like to talk about ALOT.

Bottom line is you generalize and repeat yourself way to much to be effective. I’ld like you to move on to rockclimbing.com as they have a much bigger audience and maybe you could make a better impact over there.

The only people who read your threads here do so for entertainment, NOT education. And to see how much time I’m willing to waste responding. I’d like to say farewell now... but I know I’ll be responding to something you said again... so until then...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 11:03:57 PM by DMan »
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Admin Al

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 12:08:30 AM »

We also have conflict because you often make statements that guides “teach fear” or tell people only to climb when it is perfect... and that is so far from reality.

I would like to agree wit this, but I can't. I have seen a number of folks who are almost addicted to guides. they can't go out without a guide, or when they do they have to make every placement be the "perfect placement". I watched someone like this take an hour to lead Toe Crack! they feel compelled, based on this instruction, to reduce the level of risk as close as possible to zero. it has always disturbed me. it's an old-school thing I suppose, but something that is most definitely based in fact...

[spoken from a half bottle of shiraz]
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 06:06:00 AM »

On the otherhand   My noob alert (stay cler and do not get stuck behind) goes off bigtime when I see a climber w/ a large backpack on a climb that should not take more than a coupple of hours. You may be used to it but climbing with a backpack sucks. I do not need the practice either.  I get pleanty of practice every week w/ the drill, batterys, hammer etc.etc.   A rope, a rack and the shirt on my back is the way to go most of the time. Move fast and beat the weather. My summer cannon routine is to gear up in the parkinglot and bring one bullet pack up the climb with extra clothes,food, water, for the whole team.  Bringing a 50L pack up a summer rock climb on cannon, cathedral,Willard etc. is retarded.
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hobbsj

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 08:34:00 AM »

  Bringing a 50L pack up a summer rock climb on cannon, cathedral,Willard etc. is retarded.

Guess I need to reevaluate my plans for Kiddy Crack!

We also have conflict because you often make statements that guides “teach fear” or tell people only to climb when it is perfect... and that is so far from reality.


I would like to agree wit this, but I can't. I have seen a number of folks who are almost addicted to guides. they can't go out without a guide, or when they do they have to make every placement be the "perfect placement". I watched someone like this take an hour to lead Toe Crack! they feel compelled, based on this instruction, to reduce the level of risk as close as possible to zero. it has always disturbed me. it's an old-school thing I suppose, but something that is most definitely based in fact...

[spoken from a half bottle of shiraz]

My initial thought when I read this was "who freakin cares."  In the end as long as people climb safely and ethically, I don't give a rip if every piece belongs in a textbook and it takes 3 hours per pitch.  Maybe the dude doesn't have the time to find regular partners and has the cash to pump in to a guide.  As long as he's having a grand ol time, I don't care and it shouldn't really matter.  Now if it is an issue of guides, at least the ones you are referring to, making this fear cycle, I imagine its because they emphasize the dangers since many new clients don't grasp everything being thrown at them as all of us have seen.  Maybe for some clients, they get a bit more caught up, maybe for others it is a gut-check and they only feel comfortable climbing with a guide.  If there's a dude who only climbs with a guide, maybe make a reference for him to another guide who can help him wean out of the comfort zone and progress.  Or introduce yourself or a buddy and see if they're interested in heading out.  Maybe they're socially awkward and a guide is the only way they can get a partner.  One of my  buddies used to climb almost only with guides.  In the end, he just felt more comfortable especially with his skill level and limited time.  He and I connected, and I fooled him in to thinking I'm a good partner.  We got comfortable and have a good ol time.  He still uses guides when he feels necessary, but it doesn't really matter.

Written the morning after 2/3 of a bottle of Voigneur....ugh :-)
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lucky luke

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Re: competence for trad climber
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 08:57:55 AM »

The conflict comes from the painfully repeated rhetoric (look it up please) that your posts comprise, and while they make perfect sense in your head to the English speaking new climber they are not gaining and valuable tidbits of information.
We also have conflict because you often make statements that guides “teach fear” or tell people only to climb when it is perfect... and that is so far from reality. We teach risk management so you can push yourself harder and longer on routes closer to your ability when balanced with your own personal risk acceptance. We teach about actual risk vrs. perceived risk, which you like to talk about ALOT.
I think that I have to explain it against.

All and Tradmanclimbz try to hijack the discusssion to a level of friendship relation about subject that they discuss at the bottom of cathedral. it is better than us, and sneoh,  who fight like in a soapbox and stay on our position to have a majority of people who think like us.

I most say that there is guide with who you will say: I never climb with that guide any more and there is guide with who you will say it look so simple that a child can do it ( long time ago they want to have more women climber, the "publicity was made to say: "so simple that even a women can do it" I didn't say that)

personally, I prefer a guide whit who I don't want to climb with it anymore because he bring me outside my confort zone. When I say I never climb any more, and two or three days later I think at my climb and say: it is like in my dream when I red the story of climber...I arrive at a conclusion: I can be more efficient. It is quite different than try on bolt, if you are not scare enought, try using pro on nutcracker, if you can lead it, try british wherre coming and we will humiliate you because you are not competent when you are going to have an accident

In the case of All post, a climber was with a guide and didn't learn why the leader can do a run out, he didn't think that the leader can fall with fifteen feet run out, he didn't learn with a guide in a safe and stressfull situation to do run out...he tried it alone and was so stress that he sew the crack and took many hours to do it. it is dangerous and it was done without any kind of supervision (I follow one of my friend who place pro at each five feet and none of his cam was good). When we saw that or when we saw someone with an overweight pack, or when we saw someone bolting at each five feet, or.... you understand that, as we train number of time to master those techniques, with a guide or without them, we know that they made mistake by ignorance, not by stress.

As safety is important for me, I try to inform that people, in trad, most have some competence. I agree that those competence are different than in sport where bolt could be an advantage to ignorance. But to be a survivor in the mountain, one most learn, pratice and test is skill. 
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