Smaller kids belaying adults (multi-pitch)

[Admin Al]

nice post OM

...I’m sure there is no real chance that any parent/adult is planning on taking a leader fall in such scenario...

nobody "plans" on this happening, but s**t happens. IMNSHO putting a child in the position of having to deal with things like this happening is not a wise move. but then of course this is just my "opinion" and it is of course up to the individual parent as to how they deal with things.

[Admin Al]

Not too long ago there was an accident when child unclipped herself from the anchor on a sport-climb and fallen to the ground.

where was this? Rumney? hopefully not...

[M_Sprague]

It did happen at Rumney also, up at the Hinterlands on Hot Head or Black Slabbath. Thankfully, and amazingly, she fell all the way to the ground with no serious injuries.

[sneoh]

Now that you mentioned it, Mark, I think I remember hearing that (Hinterland incident).  It is probably what OM was referring to.

[OldEric]

Now that you mentioned it, Mark, I think I remember hearing that (Hinterland incident).  It is probably what OM was referring to.

Correct.  OM had a long talk about some of this on the ride home Sunday.  I think some of her concerns, that she expressed well, were based on my anecdotes of some of the things I did wrong.

[DLottmann]

Well said OM. I agree kids should be involved in the process, and being too extreme on either side is not helpful for their growth as independent climbers (and soon-to-be-adults).

[lucky luke]

  So she will start belaying very soon, assuming she expresses any interest, but I will be 2 feet away backing her up.

She is eight and after six or seven time, maybe it will be time to go to the next step. In fact, if you ask what is the strenght need on the belaying rope to stop a fall with different device... few people know it.

As I saw some course or groupe of parent climbing with children with no belay as in abc way (if you don't know what it is, maybe you found the problem). It is obviously possible that a youngkid stop the fall of a leader without injury. Some children train with their parent for many years, take care of what there kid learn and the evolution of it. In a video of rock climbing, a 13 years old girl led a 5.12 in sport. She probably not begin to learn at 12, but long time ago (i am not for that personally, I found interesting that a perso learn gradually from 5.4- 5.6 to harder level in many year discovering many aspect of climbing.

After some one carefully plan the education of his child,teach him gradually the basic of climbing, teaching him when to take risk and when his not worthy to do a move....some stupid person arrive and thold that this guy didn't have any sens of responsability and must be the last of the worst because his learning technique, as valuable as an other is not the one to make.....

[DLottmann]

  So she will start belaying very soon, assuming she expresses any interest, but I will be 2 feet away backing her up.

...In a video of rock climbing, a 13 years old girl led a 5.12 in sport. She probably not begin to learn at 12, but long time ago (i am not for that personally, I found interesting that a perso learn gradually from 5.4- 5.6 to harder level in many year discovering many aspect of climbing.

After some one carefully plan the education of his child,teach him gradually the basic of climbing, teaching him when to take risk and when his not worthy to do a move....some stupid person arrive and thold that this guy didn't have any sens of responsability and must be the last of the worst because his learning technique, as valuable as an other is not the one to make.....

I think I half made out what you are trying to say. I know of the video you are talking about. Never saw her belaying in the video did you?

Just because a small child can crank 5.12 doesn't mean we shouldn't exercise caution with little kids belaying.

That was the point of the thread, and I am glad it spurred conversation and input... even your's my great arch-nemesis.

[sneoh]

Not sure what you are trying to say Champ but .... I know a girl who led many, many .12 and several .13 sport routes at 13 years of age  She is about to turn 14 and has been climbing for about 7 years.  Sure, she just sport climbs but is a totally competent belayer.  Is she competent to climb on The Diamond or some big wall in Yosemite?  Probably not right now .... something surely no one can hold it against her.  And she is well aware that she is a specialist and not about to risk her neck in types of climbing she knows for which she lacks expertise and experience.  But youth is a wonderful thing since she has the potential of developing into a really good all-around climber. 

[om]

Now that you mentioned it, Mark, I think I remember hearing that (Hinterland incident).  It is probably what OM was referring to.

Correct.  OM had a long talk about some of this on the ride home Sunday.  I think some of her concerns, that she expressed well, were based on my anecdotes of some of the things I did wrong.

yes, i refer to the accident at Hinterlands. Two kids were hurt, the one who fell was in better shape than the one one she landed on. All well that ends well, kids heal quickly.

Eric, the way your kids turned out is a clear answer to any concerns

[sneoh]

Two kids were hurt, the one who fell was in better shape than the one one she landed on.

Ouch!!

[lucky luke]

Not sure what you are trying to say Champ but .... I know a girl who led many, many .12 and several .13 sport routes at 13 years of age 

Are you going to say that there parent is crazy because she climb better than lot of us at 13, are you going to critizise the way there parent teach her how to climb and are you going to say that a girl who can crank on a 5.13 can not have a pressure of fifty pounds on a rope to stop a fall (fifth ed of mountaineering freedom of the hill, belaying technique there is a figure).

With a grigri and abc situation, a kid can hold a fator two fall without any problem. Why criticize those parent who have a different apporach than "I am to scare to" when they bring there kid to the cliff.

[sneoh]

"Are you going to say that there parent is crazy because she climb better than lot of us at 13, are you going to critizise the way there parent teach her how to climb and are you going to say that a girl who can crank on a 5.13 can not have a pressure of fifty pounds on a rope to stop a fall."
The answer to all that int he context of this girl I am talking about is 'no'.
I am pretty sure she can catch me with an ATC or GriGri if I were to fall and I outweigh her by 25 to 35 pounds.

[DLottmann]

Not sure what you are trying to say Champ but .... I know a girl who led many, many .12 and several .13 sport routes at 13 years of age 

Are you going to say that there parent is crazy because she climb better than lot of us at 13, are you going to critizise the way there parent teach her how to climb and are you going to say that a girl who can crank on a 5.13 can not have a pressure of fifty pounds on a rope to stop a fall (fifth ed of mountaineering freedom of the hill, belaying technique there is a figure).

With a grigri and abc situation, a kid can hold a fator two fall without any problem. Why criticize those parent who have a different apporach than "I am to scare to" when they bring there kid to the cliff.

"Are you going to say that there parent is crazy because she climb better than lot of us at 13"

No.

"are you going to critizise the way there parent teach her how to climb"

No.

"are you going to say that a girl who can crank on a 5.13 can not have a pressure of fifty pounds on a rope to stop a fall (fifth ed of mountaineering freedom of the hill, belaying technique there is a figure)."

No.

"With a grigri and abc situation, a kid can hold a fator two fall without any problem."

Ummm... anyone catching a factor 2 is going to have a problem. Little girl, you, me, Strandman, a factor 2 is a big f'ing problem. But you have a deep grasp on the physics of climbing based on Freedom of the Hills so I'll assume you mis-spoke.

"Why criticize those parent who have a different apporach than "I am to scare to" when they bring there kid to the cliff."

No one is doing that Champ. If parents actually use what you are calling "abc situation", and I know you mean that their is a ground Anchor INLINE with the Belay device, and first Carabiner then yes, a 50lb kid can catch a 300 lbs adult without getting hurt. The issue, is in the situations I have observed little kids belaying they do not have "ABC" set up, which is hard when there is no upward directional BEHIND them, like there could be in a top-rope scenario.

Let's be clear, we are talking about multi-pitch belaying, not ground belays. There is a big difference, and many here understand special care should be taken with little ones in this situation. No one is saying "don't take little kids climbing", or "don't let little kids belay"... just be aware of the forces involved and what might happen should you fall. In many cases, bringing an adult, or just not taking a belay, might be better than what could happen.

Not "teaching fear", just looking at all the angles.

[sneoh]

By the way, pressure is force per unit area.  I think you meant 50 pounds of force, not pressure, Champ.
Still, 50 pounds of force is lot for an 8 year old to exert, for example.  Just saying.