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[lucky luke]

Never, never, ever I will insult a great climber like SA, Joe Cote or any one else as the way they did it in accident in north america:

"an experienced climber, 67 year old montaineer, not taking the consequences of a fall into considerationand not taking simple safety measures of using a rope, was the ultimate cause of his death"  p 16

What a bunch of crap: Why did he fall? did he received ice or snow, is it possible to stop a fall with self arrest or boot belay? when is it time to rope up? and when it is better to stay unrope? if he rope up...do we had three death instead of one , etc. There is so much learning that we can talk about but the only thing that those guy had in mind:

          you are going to die...

They wrote for the baby that can not make a beeeelay. They have a large section (better in freedom of the hill, fifth edition, not after) to instruct you how to do a beeeelay. You climb denali, but you have to follow the advice to do a good belay and if you don't do it like what they teach you....

you are stupid!!!

it was good to say that. I feel better. sorry

 Now I can try to read the second story

[DMan]

I don't think the analysis was "insulting" at all. His partners felt the rope was needed for security due to low visibility. The "Autobahn", where he fell from has known to be "the most dangerous part of the West Buttress", as mentioned in the very next accident where a guide and client died after falling roped together (with 2 other clients).

Since only 6 days after the 1st accident a 4 person rope team fell from near the same spot one could assume that had Lucinano tied in perhaps all three would have perished. It seems, in the opinion of the NPS and guides who work on Denali, that there is a need for the snow pickets to stay in place on this section, though they keep disappearing. This is all discussed in the analysis of the next accident Champ, read that one for more insight.

[tradmanclimbz]

If there is no anchor there should be no rope. otherwise you get to do the euro death floss slide and take out everyone below you. For every time one climber has saved the rope of four there are hundreds of cases where the one climber has killed the rope of 4.

[eyebolter]

When I climbed Denali in 81, I was all alone descending from the summit in clouds and came upon a lone titanium ice axe stuck in the snow at the top of that steep icy slope.  Nobody in sight, it was kind of creepy. 

Found out later that a party of four doing the traverse stopped to change from skis to crampons and fell 1,000 feet all roped together.   They slid on either side of a serac, which prevented them from going all the way to the Peters glacier far below.

[tradmanclimbz]

anyone survive?

[DMan]

When I climbed Denali in 81, I was all alone descending from the summit in clouds and came upon a lone titanium ice axe stuck in the snow at the top of that steep icy slope.  Nobody in sight, it was kind of creepy. 
...

That would give me a serious shiver... reading it did...

[lucky luke]

If there is no anchor there should be no rope.

Found out later that a party of four doing the traverse stopped to change from skis to crampons and fell 1,000 feet all roped together.   

Thank you tradmanclimbz and eyebolter, you proove that what they said in accident in north american mountaineering can have be more respectfull and also more instructive to new climber. (Anecdote: I talk to someone who had felt damnation rope up with two other climber...the women was able to self arrest to slow down the fall, but not to stop the party. I am sure that this winter, we are not going to see many people able to do a self arrest in frankeinstein cliff)

As a thumb rules: every times you heard some one saying: "ultimate cause", "don't climb when it is high avalanche danger", "always do like that..."

Never trust them, there is always many solutions in climbing and if you know just one... you are going to swear that it is the only good one.

[eyebolter]

anyone survive?

Sorry for not posting that, yes all four survived and crawled into a snow cave at 17,000 foot camp. I was camped at the top of the head wall at 16,500 and was tired so just headed down without seeing them.  The next day, they came down past us with the guy without an ice axe at the top anchor position (lol) and asked us if we had a radio because they needed a rescue (radio? No).  Two of them had blood snot icicles in their noses and one had balooned frostbitten hands.  I was speechless.

[sneoh]

I swear, Ward has some of the best stories to tell, with no disrespect to SA, Pappy, or Strand!

Not mountaineering related but spooky; we were hiking into Oak Creek Canyon in Red Rocks along the river bed.  At one point, I looked down and saw what I am 99% sure were drops of dry blood on the rocks that lined the dry river bed.  We continued on and I saw more blood spots for another 20 minutes or so.  Then, mercifully, all of a sudden, I saw no more blood stains.  I was deeply disturbed for the rest of the day.
We never found out what had happened.

Carry on with the original thread ....  Sorry, Champ.

[DMan]

If there is no anchor there should be no rope.

Found out later that a party of four doing the traverse stopped to change from skis to crampons and fell 1,000 feet all roped together.   

As a thumb rules: every times you heard some one saying: "ultimate cause", "don't climb when it is high avalanche danger", "always do like that..."

Never trust them, there is always many solutions in climbing and if you know just one... you are going to swear that it is the only good one.

You are right Champ, there are often more contributing factors to any accident. Most accidents result from a series of errors, not just one "ultimate cause", I 100% agree. I also rarely if ever say "always" or "never" when discussing climbing choices...

However, climbing a gully forecasted by avalanche professionals as "High Danger" continues to be a stupid idea, no matter how much you wish to "train with the avalanche".

[lucky luke]

You are right Champ, there are often more contributing factors to any accident. Most accidents result from a series of errors, not just one "ultimate cause", I 100% agree. I also rarely if ever say "always" or "never" when discussing climbing choices...

You make a mistake because you just think at what you said. I say that there is many solution at a problem. It is not because you say that one is better and the other are stupid that the other solution don't exist. In doing a solution, many situation can occur and some times the one you choose is not the best. So, better to know more solution and train in real condition.

As with the discussion of soloing, start by SA, the true climber know that they had done run out longer than some solo.  Going in a section of high avalanche danger as a training, and with many solution to avoid the danger could be usefull for some one going to bigger mountain.

I hope that it is not your case and I am sure that you won't go because it is stupid for you.

[DMan]

You are right Champ, there are often more contributing factors to any accident. Most accidents result from a series of errors, not just one "ultimate cause", I 100% agree. I also rarely if ever say "always" or "never" when discussing climbing choices...

You make a mistake because you just think at what you said. I say that there is many solution at a problem. It is not because you say that one is better and the other are stupid that the other solution don't exist. In doing a solution, many situation can occur and some times the one you choose is not the best. So, better to know more solution and train in real condition.

As with the discussion of soloing, start by SA, the true climber know that they had done run out longer than some solo.  Going in a section of high avalanche danger as a training, and with many solution to avoid the danger could be usefull for some one going to bigger mountain.

I hope that it is not your case and I am sure that you won't go because it is stupid for you.

Again, you are right Champ. There are often more than one solution, and all we need is the one that is "safe enough" for the conditions. The only "stupid" solutions are the ones that blatently ignore the signs of mother nature and the advice of those more experienced than you (often snow rangers or guides, or world class mountaineers) either out of ignorance or recklessness, but much is in the eye of the beholder.

I travel on Mount Washington during High Danger days often, but not in the direct run outs or start zone/tracks of the obvious avalanche paths. You can move around a lot in the mountains during high danger, as long as you choose your terrain very carefully.

At the risk of sounded over redundant... climbing into a gully rated "High" is borderline suicidal, no matter how good you think you are...