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[lucky luke]

So if I understand correctly, what you are saying, Champ, is onsight lead attempt from the ground up every time is the only way to adhere to  your "trad ethics".  of 'trad ethics', whatever that is.
There I said it.  Blasphemy perhaps so flame away!!

No. What I said is: it is not because you climb with natural protection that you have a trad ethic!!!

In other terms: if you are a painter, you can be proud to paint a house and every body will be amaze by the decoration. it is a full job very motivating.

If you know how to make concrete, woods to make floor and roof, plumbing, electricity, painting...you can built a house.

A painter will do three houses in the same time as the other will built one house.

What you said is: because a painter take a hammer in his hands he can say that he built a house!!!

True sport climber as like a painter: Lots of style, stamina and skill in climbing technique. They take a stopper and they claim that they are trad!!!

Skill to place protection, skill to keep there nerve low, skill to evluate the weather (when I began to climb, forecast was not trustable in mountain), skill to evaluate the progression of the party on the cliff, skill to evaluate the danger, skill to save your leader if he was injure in a fall,

Trad climber admit that you create a new style and that it is rewarding. One bad side is, today, when you tell what it really happened in an accident, the family think that you insult them and they don't want that accident in north american mountaineering published the reason of the accident. They think that a painter can built a house, and when they see that it is two kind of expertise...they don't understand.

In my opinion, you are creating people who think that they are good without training different skill. The story of the bear at half dome with the 12 years old girl is very caracteristic of a person talking about some think that he don't know (biology of bears) and trying to make people react against a futur very good trad climber. 

[JBrochu]

So if I understand correctly, what you are saying, Champ, is onsight lead attempt from the ground up every time is the only way to adhere to  your "trad ethics".  of 'trad ethics', whatever that is.
There I said it.  Blasphemy perhaps so flame away!!

No. What I said is: it is not because you climb with natural protection that you have a trad ethic!!!

In other terms: if you are a painter, you can be proud to paint a house and every body will be amaze by the decoration. it is a full job very motivating.

If you know how to make concrete, woods to make floor and roof, plumbing, electricity, painting...you can built a house.

A painter will do three houses in the same time as the other will built one house.

What you said is: because a painter take a hammer in his hands he can say that he built a house!!!

True sport climber as like a painter: Lots of style, stamina and skill in climbing technique. They take a stopper and they claim that they are trad!!!

Skill to place protection, skill to keep there nerve low, skill to evluate the weather (when I began to climb, forecast was not trustable in mountain), skill to evaluate the progression of the party on the cliff, skill to evaluate the danger, skill to save your leader if he was injure in a fall,

Trad climber admit that you create a new style and that it is rewarding. One bad side is, today, when you tell what it really happened in an accident, the family think that you insult them and they don't want that accident in north american mountaineering published the reason of the accident. They think that a painter can built a house, and when they see that it is two kind of expertise...they don't understand.

In my opinion, you are creating people who think that they are good without training different skill. The story of the bear at half dome with the 12 years old girl is very caracteristic of a person talking about some think that he don't know (biology of bears) and trying to make people react against a futur very good trad climber.

[xcrag_corex]

So....I have lead Bombardment. Since I followed it before I lead it....it was a sport climb. so lets pretend I didn't follow it first and I just lead it.....if I lead it again it has magically become a sport climb?? well fuck me then, right? guess i should toss a Sharma poster on my wall.

[Fat City Pancakes]

All of the Luke-bashing with derogatory comments, pics, and gifs is more annoying than any perceived problems you have with his posting.  You do realize that you provoke the very responses that you claim to hate, right. Is this third grade, or worse, rc.com?

Luke's opinions are his own, and he's entitled to them.  How you react to them is your business, and says a lot more about you.  Obviously there is a language/translation issue; accept that you may not fully understand his true meaning.  Argue the point, not the man.

I can tell enough from Luke's posts to say that I would rope up with him anytime.

[OldEric]

There is definitely some truth to the fact that LL is a thoughtful and skilled climber.  He also is inarticulate above and beyond the language barrier - undoubtedly somewhat intentional.  He aspires to the simplest and purest of trad ethics - which ironically most of the denizens here (queue up John Strand for example) seem to believe in.  But the the flaw in LL's logic occurs when he blames all the woes of the world on not following the pure trad ethics.

[sneoh]

LL, I like your painter analogy; it illustrates your point.
People create what they become.  I do not have that power

But the the flaw in LL's logic occurs when he blames all the woes of the world on not following the pure trad ethics.

This is what I think as well.

[xcrag_corex]

I think the issue that most people have with Lucky, is the skipping record rhetoric in posts where they  don't apply. The original thread was " 5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope" not "Judge me on my ethics of climbing  5.9/5.10 Trad Routes for Projecting via Self-Belayed Toprope"
The original poster was looking for traditionally protected routes so he posted in the trad section.
If I go to Rumney and ask anyone for classic trad lines to climb, a lot of people would look at me like i had 6 heads.

Yes there is somewhat of a language barrier. Some posts make sense and other times they are harder to decipher. Having met Lucky one day when he was climbing with Base (on Ventelator?) I can say he seemed like a nice guy....i just think the same old song and dance wears thin on people when it doesn't apply to the original topic at hand.

[JBrochu]

Luke's opinions are his own, and he's entitled to them.  How you react to them is your business, and says a lot more about you. 

My responses basically say something along the lines of, hey I can recognize a troll despite using the subterfuge of English as a second language.

The fact that you believe he's not trolling says something about you too.

[JBrochu]

There is definitely some truth to the fact that LL is a thoughtful and skilled climber.  He also is inarticulate above and beyond the language barrier - undoubtedly somewhat intentional.  He aspires to the simplest and purest of trad ethics - which ironically most of the denizens here (queue up John Strand for example) seem to believe in.  But the the flaw in LL's logic occurs when he blames all the woes of the world on not following the pure trad ethics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Strandman ever being critical of somebodies chosen tactics provided they are on virgin ground. He obviously holds ground up bold ascents in high regard, and has only asked that people respect the method of first ascent (i.e. - no retrobolting, etc.)

Champs responses in this thread are ridiculous and are flat out trolling. Or he's stupid. Those are the only two explanations.

Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something.

[Admin Al]

Bottom line, the existing tree anchor will die in the next 20 years, and then the bolts will go back in... and stay

Probobly and I will be fine with that..

yeah, because you'll probably be dead... LOL

[Jeff]

 " Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something. "

So far the most cogent statement of the point of the past 8 pages!! I couldn't agree more. Now let's just climb, without judging style, UNLESS that style is misrepresented-- then let the slings and arrows fly. 

[old_school]

" Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something. "

So far the most cogent statement of the point of the past 8 pages!! I couldn't agree more. Now let's just climb, without judging style, UNLESS that style is misrepresented-- then let the slings and arrows fly. 

+1 Jeff 

[JBrochu]

" Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something. "

So far the most cogent statement of the point of the past 8 pages!! I couldn't agree more. Now let's just climb, without judging style, UNLESS that style is misrepresented-- then let the slings and arrows fly. 

I actually shouldn't have even qualified that statement with "trad climbers" as I believe most sport climbers feel the same way as well. (At least as far as onsighting anyway. Most cutting edge sport routes wouldn't be possible to do ground up.)

[sneoh]

" Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something. "

So far the most cogent statement of the point of the past 8 pages!! I couldn't agree more. Now let's just climb, without judging style, UNLESS that style is misrepresented-- then let the slings and arrows fly. 

Jeff comes through again!  +1 and THANK YOU.

[tradmanclimbz]

little confused on what you mean there JB about not possible to do cutting edge sport climbs GU.  If the route is established it is often easier to to work the bolts GU than try to get a TR set on it and if you are equiping the route, GU is often easier for severly overhanging terrain than the top down approach.