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[JBrochu]

I just meant you can't really onsite ground up sport climbs if you have to put the bolts in first. But for all subsequent ascents yes I think sport climbers also value onsighting more highly than redpointing. 

[strandman]

I think I'm a sport climber   

[sneoh]

I think I'm a sport climber   

Resistance is futile! Jeri Ryan is definitely a sport climber.

[strandman]

IF it's Ok with Eric   

[eyebolter]

" Like most trad climbers, I believe an on-sight ground-up ascent is the purest and best style and when you can do a route in this style it means much more than working a route first. However, there is obviously nothing wrong with working routes at or above your limit in order to improve, provided you don't misrepresent how you accomplished something. "

Minor disagree...


The best style is a ground-up first ascent, as the route has been cleaned and the holds are marked with chalk in your example. Not the same as the FA.   No shoes is even better, hard for me to to see how rubber is not aid (though I do use shoes, at least sometimes).

I have barefoot onsighted 12a in the Red, but it is hard to say that was any great accomplishment as the route was steep, the bolts were many, the draws were hanging, and the holds were all mapped out in chalk.

Henry Barber's barefoot first ascent of "Dean's Day Off" 12a, would be my example of a route done in the "best style." I don't think that anything has been done since then that is harder in absolute terms.

[OldEric]

IF it's Ok with Eric   

John - you are  equivalent to THREE sport climbers (in more ways then 1)   

[lucky luke]

  But the the flaw in LL's logic occurs when he blames all the woes of the world on not following the pure trad ethics.

I don't blame any body because he didn't follow pure trad ethic.

In Quebec, we have the english and french language. Assimilation is done by people who said that more people talk both language and it is not important the language you talk. Speak english, so every people in the world will understand you, it is the language of the money, etc. Immigrant just want to speak english, some people think like them and, slowly but surely, assimilation is done.

We talk about Patrick Edlinger recently. He told that it was not acceptable to work a route before, but more climber begin to think that we most do it. He is the father of sport climber, or the one who begin the mediatisation of that kind of ethic. I just asked those we the same ethic, an he is a respectable climber, to write it in sport section so people will understand that it is different than trad. That it is not acceptable to work or route in the tradition of trad climbing.

Even if I understand the critique an even if I climbed recompense many times. There is always some thing different...me!. Actually I feel older than 5.10, but... So bottom up as much as you can.

Example of exercise. In second, try to climb bombardment, but stay always on the left side of the crack!!!!
Lead and try to take as few pro as it is to stay safe!!! There is so much to do.

[JBrochu]

  But the the flaw in LL's logic occurs when he blames all the woes of the world on not following the pure trad ethics.

I don't blame any body because he didn't follow pure trad ethic.

In Quebec, we have the english and french language. Assimilation is done by people who said that more people talk both language and it is not important the language you talk. Speak english, so every people in the world will understand you, it is the language of the money, etc. Immigrant just want to speak english, some people think like them and, slowly but surely, assimilation is done.

We talk about Patrick Edlinger recently. He told that it was not acceptable to work a route before, but more climber begin to think that we most do it. He is the father of sport climber, or the one who begin the mediatisation of that kind of ethic. I just asked those we the same ethic, an he is a respectable climber, to write it in sport section so people will understand that it is different than trad. That it is not acceptable to work or route in the tradition of trad climbing.

Even if I understand the critique an even if I climbed recompense many times. There is always some thing different...me!. Actually I feel older than 5.10, but... So bottom up as much as you can.

Example of exercise. In second, try to climb bombardment, but stay always on the left side of the crack!!!!
Lead and try to take as few pro as it is to stay safe!!! There is so much to do.

Regarding the bolded, you're just plain wrong. It doesn't get any more trad than English gritstone and they've been toproping and headpointing (though they didn't call it headpointing then) gritstone since the 1800's.

There are no fixed rules save those you create for yourself provided you are honest about how you've accomplished something.

If I wanted to waste my time, I could create a list of hundreds of hard core trad climbers who work/have worked routes on toprope.

In summary, piss off with your judgements.   

[sneoh]

"That it is not acceptable to work or route in the tradition of trad climbing."
In this day and age, this is probably no longer the case.  One can't be totally shackled to the past! 

"There are no fixed rules save those you create for yourself provided you are honest about how you've accomplished something.".
In this context, I would agree.  Set the bar high for yourself but try to not IMPOSE your values and judgement on others who, though not totally in agreement with you and your values, are equally justified in their views and opinions.

I used to get annoyed when climbers would equate redpoint with pinkpoint.  I am past that now; it was a losing battle.  But in my own climbing log, I make the distinction (OS, Flash, RP, PP).  Yeah, TR does not count in my book but I am not going to be judgmental! when it comes to others

[DLottmann]

JBrochu, it's hard enough reading Champs epic posts. Could you not quote the entire post of his? It eats up so much thread space as if is... In the situation where you bolded the sentence you wanted to respond to just delete the rest.  Adding "..." Before & after indicates you cut out the quote.

[tradmanclimbz]

Climbing police and posting police

[DLottmann]

... posting police...

Like this

[JBrochu]

But in my own climbing log, I make the distinction (OS, Flash, RP, PP).  Yeah, TR does not count in my book but I am not going to be judgmental! when it comes to others

What difference does it make if you redpoint/headpoint a route after working it with a partner versus working it on toprope?

[strandman]

IF it's Ok with Eric   

John - you are  equivalent to THREE sport climbers (in more ways then 1)   
[/quot

Maybe ! BUt I have 3 members of team Chinos in my house right now !   

[lucky luke]

""There are no fixed rules save those you create for yourself provided you are honest about how you've accomplished something."

No fixe rules, but guideline to understand what is trad and what is sport. And a little bit of honesty for new climbers who want to understand and associate the guideline to there practice and choose by themselve what they want to do.

personally, you go to a sport cliff, you bring your quick draws... climb on bolt...Oh! it is a crack!!! no bolt. So you turned back to your car, get out the packsack, get out the gear, bring them to the cliff and finally climbed twenty feet of 'trad'. For me, it is not fair. Bolt that crack.

Twenty years before, I listen to a discussion about using bolt or not at poko-monshine. All the bolt was placed bottom up on lead. So, bolt was there before sport?