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[snowleopard]

Bastards!

[sneoh]

Tradman, I have been thinking about what you wrote about more TR at The Gunks due to bolted anchors.  I am not sure the dynamics changed solely due to bolted anchors.  There have always been a lot of "sling anchors" at The Gunks; even back in the 90's you would see a substantial number of TR gangs beyond the Uberfalls.  For example, Ant's Line and Ent's Line, some .11 near Airy Aria, The Sting, To Be or Not to Be, Bird Brain, Slamming The Salmon, and on and on.  I think the change you noticed might also has to do with the attitude of the climbers who go to The Gunks these days.  Multi-pitch just seems too much work for some.

[tradmanclimbz]

The bolted anchors certainly facilitated that attitude on more pitches. I liked it better there when you you climbed to the top and hiked off to an easier route and down soloed it...

[tradmanclimbz]

Don't get me wrong.  I like good anchors and have even set many of my climbs up so that you can get down with a single 60M rope. I do however feel that when you add a mid point anchor to a climb that is traditionaly climbed to the top that you can not help but to change the nature and feel of the climb and the traffic patterns of that climb.

[JBrochu]

Tradman I don't disagree with many of your points regarding bolting and fixed protection. I just find it odd that you're making this particular argument about Bombardment. I mean there are no bolts there right now and I would say far fewer than 50% of current ascents end up going the top of the cliff. I've done it a few times and have always rapped off, and twice we've waited for the previous party to rap before starting. (lolz sample size)

I believe it's a stretch to categorize that particular climb as one traditionally climbed to the top.

[tradmanclimbz]

My last few posts were more about the gunks though I have always topped out when climbing Bombardment.

[frik]

JB.... eight pages so far, how many climbs have been offered which remotely meet your original criteria?
just curious.

also: why exactly are we against trees dying at cathedral?

[tradmanclimbz]

More dead trees = more sunshine = rock dries faster 

[strandman]

That was the south Butt in the '80's ! 'cept the trees were not dead.

You COULD do another route if someone in on something you want to do   

How about "never climb beneath another party >"

[lucky luke]

1. This is an EXPERIENCED climber Looking for routes to work "FOR DAYS WHEN I GET STUCK W/OUT A PARTNER"
So In your eyes to stay true TRAD in this Circumstance he would need to Solo? Its in the TRAD section because he wants TRAD routes he can eventually lead with a partner present.

2. By TRing the route first, doesn't negate the fact that when he goes on the sharp end IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR.

3. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ACCIDENTS RESULTING IN DEATH.....it is someone looking to SAFELY hone there skills when they can't get out with someone else.

1- Experience from the bottom up. There is a way to safely climb a route by setting an anchor at the bottom and self belay himself without the necessity of a partner. SA did it on the prow as he made the second ascent of it and took a wimper of 100 feets. He had a self belay.

2- IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR: But it won't be lead in the traditional ethic. This is the problem. using a bolt or a cam that you already know the size and the direction to place it you just need a little bit more stamina. When you don't know where to place the pro, you have to stop, make an evaluation of the move, think at the distance you are going to fall, decide the size of the pro in a way that you will have some thing higher to place, etc... This is what a trad climber is accostumed to do.

3- To have an accident, you need three thing: a bad situation, a skill climber and a mistake. Bad situation, it is happening every times; skill climber at top rope, it is like some one who built a house...if his job is to brought the brick from the truck to the worker who will place it, he is not very good, a mistake is choosing the wrong pro...sport climber use bolt and do the route on top rope to know what to use, a trad climber will do aid climbing; stress to be kill, sport climber often don't think at stressfull situation, trad climber increase slowly there level by resolving stressfull situation...a little bit at a time; rest place, in top rope, you head as fast as you can to the top to take the lead, etc.

In resume: sport climber are often at the wrong place at the wrong moment... it is why there is more accident in trad.

Verdon, some place in the west of america, on bolt, they are amasing. Style, fluidity, etc, are all caracteristic of sport climber.

But, they are at the wrong place at the wrong moment

that cause death, not minor accident.

[DMan]

In resume: sport climber are often at the wrong place at the wrong moment... it is why there is more accident in trad.

You kill me. That makes NO SENSE!

[JBrochu]

1. This is an EXPERIENCED climber Looking for routes to work "FOR DAYS WHEN I GET STUCK W/OUT A PARTNER"
So In your eyes to stay true TRAD in this Circumstance he would need to Solo? Its in the TRAD section because he wants TRAD routes he can eventually lead with a partner present.

2. By TRing the route first, doesn't negate the fact that when he goes on the sharp end IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR.

3. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ACCIDENTS RESULTING IN DEATH.....it is someone looking to SAFELY hone there skills when they can't get out with someone else.

1- Experience from the bottom up. There is a way to safely climb a route by setting an anchor at the bottom and self belay himself without the necessity of a partner. SA did it on the prow as he made the second ascent of it and took a wimper of 100 feets. He had a self belay.

2- IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR: But it won't be lead in the traditional ethic. This is the problem. using a bolt or a cam that you already know the size and the direction to place it you just need a little bit more stamina. When you don't know where to place the pro, you have to stop, make an evaluation of the move, think at the distance you are going to fall, decide the size of the pro in a way that you will have some thing higher to place, etc... This is what a trad climber is accostumed to do.

3- To have an accident, you need three thing: a bad situation, a skill climber and a mistake. Bad situation, it is happening every times; skill climber at top rope, it is like some one who built a house...if his job is to brought the brick from the truck to the worker who will place it, he is not very good, a mistake is choosing the wrong pro...sport climber use bolt and do the route on top rope to know what to use, a trad climber will do aid climbing; stress to be kill, sport climber often don't think at stressfull situation, trad climber increase slowly there level by resolving stressfull situation...a little bit at a time; rest place, in top rope, you head as fast as you can to the top to take the lead, etc.

In resume: sport climber are often at the wrong place at the wrong moment... it is why there is more accident in trad.

Verdon, some place in the west of america, on bolt, they are amasing. Style, fluidity, etc, are all caracteristic of sport climber.

But, they are at the wrong place at the wrong moment

that cause death, not minor accident.

[JBrochu]

Champ hard at work formulating his next post.

[sneoh]

2- IT WILL STILL BE LEAD WITH TRADITIONAL GEAR: But it won't be lead in the traditional ethic. This is the problem. using a bolt or a cam that you already know the size and the direction to place it you just need a little bit more stamina. When you don't know where to place the pro, you have to stop, make an evaluation of the move, think at the distance you are going to fall, decide the size of the pro in a way that you will have some thing higher to place, etc... This is what a trad climber is accostumed to do.

So if I understand correctly, what you are saying, Champ, is onsight lead attempt from the ground up every time is the only way to adhere to  your "trad ethics".  If you were to strictly adhere to this rule all the time (ie no top-roping, no headpoint, no working a route on lead), then good luck to ever leading .10+ PG-13 and harder/scarier clean consistently.  Perhaps that is not an issue for you because of your carpal tunnel problem (which you have made common knowledge here).
But please do not try to make others, who seek to better themselves through widely accepted training means, feel that they are somehow cheating and violating your unique interpretation of 'trad ethics', whatever that is.
There I said it.  Blasphemy perhaps so flame away!!
 

[eyebolter]

JB.... eight pages so far, how many climbs have been offered which remotely meet your original criteria?
just curious.

also: why exactly are we against trees dying at cathedral?

Dead trees = dirt running down route.