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Author Topic: rescue problematic  (Read 748 times)

lucky luke

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rescue problematic
« on: November 30, 2012, 08:36:24 PM »

I was with my friend hicking in a snow storm. I was kidding him when I told him that I will call the rescue because we are lost (not really) He answered that it will be the last thing that he will do...and me either. He is a mountaineer and I am not bad either. Stayed many days alone in the wilderness close to la pomme d'or and climbed it. I played in the cold weather and bad condition. Ordinarly, I begin to have fun when the other want to go back home. If I can't do it, a rescue can't do it either. So, the problem to be rescue is not a problematic for me.

But what is the responsability of the government, guide or other people when some people go to the wilderness and what legal procedure exist? Do they have the obligation to do some thing or do the leader of the group have the responsability.

what is the legal responsability?

Note: we understand that some one who gave courses and want more client can scare people. And that those people will take an academic style to look credible. I am interested in real consequences and actions in a situation where some one can have to call for rescue.

 
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OldEric

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 10:23:48 PM »

Rescue should not be a legal issue with the implication that the government - big brother - is responsible.  It should be an available service that can be called upon when desired.  A commercial service.  The cost will be pricey.  Insurance companies could have a field day.  No judgment involved - the drunken co-ed lost in the woods pays the same as mr big time guide who was taken out by a snowboarder while guiding 6 blind clients up Lion's Head (mr do good - victim of  a fluke accident).  Everyone - or their insurance company - pays the actual cost.
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DWT

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 10:48:29 PM »

Rescue should not be a legal issue with the implication that the government - big brother - is responsible.  It should be an available service that can be called upon when desired.  A commercial service.  The cost will be pricey.  Insurance companies could have a field day.  No judgment involved - the drunken co-ed lost in the woods pays the same as mr big time guide who was taken out by a snowboarder while guiding 6 blind clients up Lion's Head (mr do good - victim of  a fluke accident).  Everyone - or their insurance company - pays the actual cost.

Bill my estate for the carry-out.  Good Luck :)
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lucky luke

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2012, 11:11:52 AM »

Rescue should not be a legal issue with the implication that the government - big brother - is responsible.

I understand the solution and it will be interesting to discuss the problematic that people in real danger who won't call because they don't have the money. It is similar to the medical care when people don't go to see the doctor with broken finger or a bad fall. We can also talk about the resistance of the insurance to pay for thoe kind of accident and make restriction. I can think at a father with two child who broke unfortunately a leg, lost his job and let there child in povrety. I understand that there is + and - to be discuss.

But in that post, I just like to know the problematic: "should not be. This means that actually, there is an legal implication of the government in it. What is it? I know a law that state that you most help some one when his life his threatening if you don't place your life in danger...is there any other legal issue?

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triguy

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2012, 12:15:53 PM »

You are treading the fine line between ethics, politics, and common sense.

Those topics should never be mixed.....
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ELM

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2012, 03:22:30 PM »

Rescue should not be a legal issue with the implication that the government - big brother - is responsible.

I understand the solution and it will be interesting to discuss the problematic that people in real danger who won't call because they don't have the money. It is similar to the medical care when people don't go to see the doctor with broken finger or a bad fall. We can also talk about the resistance of the insurance to pay for thoe kind of accident and make restriction. I can think at a father with two child who broke unfortunately a leg, lost his job and let there child in povrety. I understand that there is + and - to be discuss.

But in that post, I just like to know the problematic: "should not be. This means that actually, there is an legal implication of the government in it. What is it? I know a law that state that you most help some one when his life his threatening if you don't place your life in danger...is there any other legal issue?

    No state has any law that states you must help someone in need. All states have a good samaritan law that will protect you, to a certian extent, if you do assist someone(do CPR etc).
    Licensed medical professionals have a license clause that states they must assist in time of need. Failure to do so can result in loss of their license.
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lucky luke

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2012, 05:59:25 PM »

    Licensed medical professionals have a license clause that states they must assist in time of need. Failure to do so can result in loss of their license.
Can it be apply for a climber in mt washington snowstorm? So, calling 911 automatically create an obligation???
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DMan

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 08:36:14 PM »

    Licensed medical professionals have a license clause that states they must assist in time of need. Failure to do so can result in loss of their license.
Can it be apply for a climber in mt washington snowstorm? So, calling 911 automatically create an obligation???

Yes... but no guarantee your ass will be saved in time... In the US, if you call 911, they will come for you. They may wait until conditions are reasonably safe for the rescue... so if you decide to "train for avalanche in HIGH avalanche danger" then you may be on your own until things are more stable...

Bottom line is there are plenty of hikers, climbers, guides, world-class mountaineer's on volunteer rescue services in this area. When the State of NH feels they need more assistance than they have (Fish & Game or NPS), they call upon volunteer services to come assist. Rescue safety is always at the forefront, as victims have made decisions that lead to their predicaments...

Champ did you know the only person to ever be killed during a rescue on Mount Washington was a EMS Guide and volunteer on Mountain Rescue Service?

You might start to realize that climbing guides and educators are also climbers, many who have lost friends, co-workers, and packaged complete strangers getting killed in the mountains, some experienced, some not...

Your "we understand that some one who gave courses and want more client can scare people." comment is pointed and unrealistic, though you dislike of formal guiding shines on...

"I am interested in real consequences and actions in a situation where some one can have to call for rescue."

If that state of NH feels you were "grossly negligent" you may be charged for your rescue. It may be hard in a court of law to prove what is "grossly negligent", but it should be a moot point... because EVERY climber/hiker, should understand that calling for a rescue in most cases will put other peoples lives at risk... so the decision to call should be prudent... i.e. life & limb.
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kenreville

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 09:53:33 PM »

    Licensed medical professionals have a license clause that states they must assist in time of need. Failure to do so can result in loss of their license.
Can it be apply for a climber in mt washington snowstorm? So, calling 911 automatically create an obligation???

Yes... but no guarantee your ass will be saved in time... In the US, if you call 911, they will come for you. They may wait until conditions are reasonably safe for the rescue... so if you decide to "train for avalanche in HIGH avalanche danger" then you may be on your own until things are more stable...

Bottom line is there are plenty of hikers, climbers, guides, world-class mountaineer's on volunteer rescue services in this area. When the State of NH feels they need more assistance than they have (Fish & Game or NPS), they call upon volunteer services to come assist. Rescue safety is always at the forefront, as victims have made decisions that lead to their predicaments...

Champ did you know the only person to ever be killed during a rescue on Mount Washington was a EMS Guide and volunteer on Mountain Rescue Service?

You might start to realize that climbing guides and educators are also climbers, many who have lost friends, co-workers, and packaged complete strangers getting killed in the mountains, some experienced, some not...

Your "we understand that some one who gave courses and want more client can scare people." comment is pointed and unrealistic, though you dislike of formal guiding shines on...

"I am interested in real consequences and actions in a situation where some one can have to call for rescue."

If that state of NH feels you were "grossly negligent" you may be charged for your rescue. It may be hard in a court of law to prove what is "grossly negligent", but it should be a moot point... because EVERY climber/hiker, should understand that calling for a rescue in most cases will put other peoples lives at risk... so the decision to call should be prudent... i.e. life & limb.

You are a patient person DMan. This guy Luke needs to get his shit together. He is a mess. Yeah you. ::)
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lucky luke

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2012, 10:51:33 PM »

If that state of NH feels you were "grossly negligent" you may be charged for your rescue.

I skip every interesting discour about bears above, but there is a law in new hampshire for grossly negligent? is it possible to have the text of it for the climbers?

I worked eight years in hospital and people died as I was doing rcr (I lost three of them). We can't expect to save every body. But a better knowledge of the exact law is better than an opinion. The climber will be able to take there own decision, other way, they will follow a number of rules write on a sign.

I know what is postromatic choc after a bad situation. One of my friend had one and he still love climbing.   

 
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triguy

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2012, 08:33:31 AM »

Champ, it all depends if they are a trad climber or a sport climber!

Clearly there are different governing laws for both parties.
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lucky luke

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2012, 09:12:43 AM »

Champ, it all depends if they are a trad climber or a sport climber!

Clearly there are different governing laws for both parties.

There is no such a difference in ice, fortunately, although some people want to be god without training and some other want to be good with training. In sport, a bolt is used and the danger of the situation doesn't exist except when a sport climber go to a trad route. In ice, we often see some climber using one technique, the ice pick was place in front of the nose of the climber and the feet on each side. They use there second pick and move there feet on each side of it too. This technique is very good for experiences climbers who know how to evaluate the condition of the ice. Those climber never climb other technique like munkey hang or pidgeon hole, etc.

Those who like to have a longer approach will learn about the quality of the ice. Not a lot of climber know that there is seven different ice, excluding those we have in our drink, and each of them have there caracteristic and technique to climb it, some people never look at an avalanche on a roof ot never go in snow storm to see how the avalanche are form or the transformation of snow into ice or ice into snow.

I think that climbing dracula at minus fifteen on monday, zero on tuesday  and plus five on wednesday  change the quality of the ice and the danger as well. Some climb it the same way and could be rescue and some climb it differently and have fun.

What to teach to be safe is, for me, a rescue problematic. Particularly if you think that, to have more client, you must have satisfy client...and satisfy client climb like experince climber (leashless, ice pick position, ice screw placement, etc). The worse think is that a good climber (do hundred of ascent per years) can be a bad teacher...or he can show you different technique that you will understand one year after your courses (and save your life) better than a perfect academic teacher with a hundred ascent of shoestring in his life,

 
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ELM

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2012, 04:24:53 PM »

    Licensed medical professionals have a license clause that states they must assist in time of need. Failure to do so can result in loss of their license.
Can it be apply for a climber in mt washington snowstorm? So, calling 911 automatically create an obligation???

Yes it does create an obligation...why would we have it if it didn't  ???
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Ed Matt
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lucky luke

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Re: rescue problematic
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2012, 04:41:39 PM »

http://www.livefreeordiealliance.org/Issues/NegligentHikerLaw/tabid/2095/Default.aspx
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120702/NEWS07/707039895

Thank you for the link. here is the essential of: "hikeSafe Hiker Responsibility Code"

You are responsible for
■With knowledge and gear. Become self reliant by learning about the terrain, conditions, local weather and your equipment before you start.
■To leave your plans. Tell someone where you are going, the trails you are hiking, when youíll return and your emergency plans.
■To stay together. When you start as a group, hike as a group, end as a group. Pace your hike to the slowest person.
■To turn back. Weather changes quickly in the mountains. Fatigue and unexpected conditions can also affect your hike. Know your limitations and when to postpone your hike. The mountains will be there another day.
■For emergencies. Even if you are headed out for just an hour, an injury, severe weather or a wrong turn could become life threatening. Donít assume you will be rescued; know how to rescue yourself.
■To share the hiker code with others.

I don't know if the AAC have a similar code for climber. Knowing one technique is good, but master three or four is better. I don't no either if the law is just for people who lost the path or if it is for an injure climber or hiker who made a mistake.

When a climber felt on an avalanche after he cut the lower edge of the slab with his tool is for me negligent. Knowing the area and the terrain, he should had climb the steeper place in the corner to avaoid to be caught in the avalanches. Futhermore, climbing after a snowstorm, when it is shiny blue sky, could be more dangerous than any things else...Finaly, a 14 8 thousand meters mountaineer died close to base camp when he decided to turn back at the summit of the mountain because too high danger and he felt in a crevasse on the glacier.

if I share the code with other, I will ask where do you find a place where the "slab ice can explode under highwater pressure"...or where do you find a boiler plate...I am sure that not many of you know the answwer.

knowing about self arrest, pidgeon hole, etc...isnt it the problem of learning to climb? and a problematic to rescue?     
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