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[strandman]

And i guess Largo can't fly as well as Miss Hill did BITD

[tradmanclimbz]

Be interesting to know what kind of unfinished knott it was?

[DMan]

Be interesting to know what kind of unfinished knott it was?

I guess... unfinished is unfinished IMO... but if it hurts the bowline as a tie-in knot I'd be happy about that... DOWN WITH THE BOWLINE! (for tie-in)

[xcrag_corex]

https://www.rockandice.com/news/2383-john-long-injured-in-groundfall?utm_source=Mountain%2BProject&utm_medium=RSS%2BFeed&utm_campaign=MP%2BFeed-News

it was the bowline.....

[eyebolter]

Didn't rock and ice have an article on that a few years back?   Virtually all "knot failures" were with a bowline.   

As an aside, I am afraid of heights and a paranoid bastard and I ALWAYS double check my knot , have my partner check my knot, and then I check my partner's belay set up. 

I am going to die, but not because of an improperly tied knot or an incorrectly threaded Gri-gri (and yes you need to use a gri gri because I want you to be able to catch me even when you are dead!).

[DMan]

https://www.rockandice.com/news/2383-john-long-injured-in-groundfall?utm_source=Mountain%2BProject&utm_medium=RSS%2BFeed&utm_campaign=MP%2BFeed-News

it was the bowline.....

Wow... well... two people are really to blame. JL and his belayer... as a belayer I don't feel I can honestly say "on belay" unless I have checked my partners knot... EVERY TIME!

That being said, there was a great short article a month or two ago in one of the rags, the "Ask a Guide" section, where Robb Hess stated the absolute best knot to tie in with is the retraced figure eight with NO BACKUP KNOT!

The argument was when this is tied properly it;

1) Is impossible for it to untie

2) Easy to inspect, even from a distance (backup knots make it harder to inspect)

The UIAA (and Freedom of the Hills) both endorse the retraced eight with 6 inches of tail on a snug knot... that's IT. No silly half-hitches after the fact... tie the knot correctly, and carry on...

The ONLY advantage of the bowline is it is slightly easier to untie after a HARD fall on it... to many wanna bees think they are falling hard enough to use the bowline, or think it is cool because it is not the standard...

I've been able to untie figure 8's after 200lb people have whipped on them... it's a lame advantage...

Re-traced eight, you check it, your belayer checks it, you check it one more time... climb on!

[eyebolter]

Any comment about the eight follow through with the tail tucked back in?  My wife uses it, as do a  lot of sport climbers, but I use a half fisherman"s back up.  I know the back up doesn't really do anything, but that way I know I have plenty of extra.

Agree D man about both climber and belayer being at fault, but most people are cavalier about sport climbing, especially in the gym.  Frankly, I"m surprised that this type of accident doesnt happen more often.  It probably helps that I'm afraid of heights and paranoid to boot, 37 years on the rock and no such screw up yet.

[strandman]

Me too EYE--- paranoia and fear of heights wins every time..

[lucky luke]

it was the bowline.....

A bowline can not make mistake. John Long didn't finish his knot. He make the mistake and he was honest with us.

fifty five years old, he climbs for more than forty years probably and, for a reason that we don't know, he forget to finish his not.

I wonder what is the more painfull: the injury or the bunch of people trying to teach him the good way to climb.

As a trad climber, it just remind me that the edge between safety and danger is very sharp and it is easy to go to one side or the other. Next time, it could be me. Better to be prepare. it will not be a bowline, because I use a figure eight....but a mistake can be on any thing else. I was at the summit of the mountain, going to trow my rope to rap and I wasn't tie in. It was, an I am, lucky...luke

[sneoh]

Any comment about the eight follow through with the tail tucked back in?  My wife uses it, as do a  lot of sport climbers, ...... 

I was shown a variation of this last Oct.  I have been doing the "tuck-in" (some people call it Figure-9) for years now.  Joe Landry first showed me.  Anyways, rather than the tuck-in end being fully snug in the Figure-8, leave it a bit loose and tighten the 8 knot around it.  This forms a small loop or eye you can get a biner into to loosen the tuck-in if you were to take a whipper and the Figure-8 really cinches tight onto the tuck-in end. 

[xcrag_corex]

It's strange how people can be avid climbers and afraid of heights. Tack my name on that list too...hahah.

And Lucky.... no one said it was the bowlines fault....its just a more difficult knot to examine... trace 8 is just easier to inspect....

[M_Sprague]

I'll stick with my double bowline with fisherman's stopper knot, thank you. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not coming undone and I can do it with my eyes closed in my sleep. Any knot can fail if you botch it. That is why I am like Ward in that I double check my knot and my partners and the same with the belay device. Do it every time at every pitch and it becomes second nature and  makes it feel weird and noticeable if you don't.  ..even, maybe especially in the gym, where there are so many distractions.

[tradmanclimbz]

Despite the fact that the vast majority of climbers use the fig. eight as a tie in knot the vast majority of tie in failures happen with the bowline. The math speaks for itself..

[M_Sprague]

For me, the likelihood of not finishing my knot is greater with a figure 8. With the bowline I pass the knot through my harness then I tie the knot. With the figure 8 you tie a knot, put the rope through the harness, then retrace it, so you have the feel and look of a knot there before it is able to hold anything. I like the other advantages of the double bowline too, like ease of untying after weighting and the fact that I can adjust easily if I didn't start with the right length of rope. They are both good knots that will hold you if tied properly. The key for both is to drill it into yourself and your belayer to double check everything.

[bennybrew]

They are both good knots that will hold you if tied properly. The key for both is to drill it into yourself and your belayer to double check everything.

there you go.