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[SA]

I check my not 2-3 times before I start to climb these days, since I know that I'm getting pretty senile.

Maybe 20 years ago, I was climbing the Prow with John Bouchard. We had already done the 5.9-10 approach slab.

I was seconding John on the 5.11 pitch and before he took off he glanced down at my knot and noticed that I had only done half of it. He was pretty pissed off, knowing that I was wearing one of "his" harnesses.

I think he was more worried about the repercussions to Wild Things than my health.

Fun times and shit happens.

[strandman]

Good one SA.. I still have a WT harness, hardly used and in great shape. I'm sure it's still fine.. Of course the REALLY old swami belt has seen better days

[JBrochu]

Sorry, I meant to write the figure 8 with yosemite finish. I'll correct above. Supposedly it is even worse with a bowline if you didn't use the half fishermans stopper knot. So the stopper knot is indeed important even with the figure 8, since climbers use it in more ways than simply one directional load bearing.

With a figure 8 -- as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish it's ok to use that loop for load bearing, correct?

[xcrag_corex]

Petzle warning not to put your dick in the knot and then cross load the loop?

+1 Mark. I think we can all agree that systematic checking of the knot (regardless of type) and not getting your dick caught in it are good rules to live by.

[M_Sprague]

With a figure 8 -- as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish it's ok to use that loop for load bearing, correct?

I am not absolutely sure atm. ..need to do more research. When I ever have to use a figure 8, I throw a half fisherman's stopper knot on anyway out of habit. It is a little more bulky, but easy to see and judge, unlike some of the pass through methods. Even if you somehow mess up the 8, the half fisherman's should hold if there is some tail. There are a bunch of threads on MP, including a current one where I got the picture from, talking about knots. 

I wonder statistically if the apparent greater instances of people messing up their bowlines is connected with people who use double bowlines simply climb more, so have more chances to screw up?

[DMan]

That "extra" wrap if you want to call it that is critical to the "figure 9/Yosemite finish" being safe... that is what is usually missing when I see people using it... I don't call it "extra" because it's how you are supposed to do it... not wrapping weakens the tie knot, the tests have shown an improperly tied 8 can still be incredibly strong, it's still wrong without the wrap...

Sorry, I meant to write the figure 8 with yosemite finish. I'll correct above. Supposedly it is even worse with a bowline if you didn't use the half fishermans stopper knot. So the stopper knot is indeed important even with the figure 8, since climbers use it in more ways than simply one directional load bearing.

With a figure 8 -- as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish it's ok to use that loop for load bearing, correct?

I see no reason to, a figure 8 is designed for only two directions of pull, clipping in like the diagram shows would load it awkwardly... there are much better solutions to quickly clipping into an anchor if you are sport climbing...

[M_Sprague]

... there are much better solutions to quickly clipping into an anchor if you are sport climbing...

Plus it wouldn't work so well if you untie to thread the rope.

[sneoh]

To do exactly what the diagram shows makes little sense to me but the same can happen at a protection bolt (as opposed to bolted anchors).  The way I tie my Figure-8 know, "in direct to a bolt" usually means rope-end biner through both the belay loop and the Figure-8 loop.

[eyebolter]

Yeah, clip the belay loop into the anchor and/ or tie a knot in the rope and clip that in.  Isn't this climbing 101.?

Who the hell clips a draw into the tie in loop? Obviously this is going to be weaker.

[JBrochu]

The reason I ask is once in a while when I have a 3 point anchor I use the method Rich Goldstone came up with (or popularized--not 100% sure he developed it) to use the rope to create an equalized anchor. Except instead of tying the butterfly powerpoint I just use the loop formed by my figure eight tie-in knot since it's faster. I got this idea from Rich in the same thread he posted the picture below.

[DMan]

Judging by the photo the whole reason for the butterfly loop in that setup is it address the weakness of clipping into the figure 8 loop as you do as a time saver...

If you are looking to save time how about just using a cordelette or a "combination" anchor (i.e. magic x two on a shoulder sling and pre-equalize with a double from there)...

There is no way this set up pictured is "quick"... it's only advantage is it saves 2 slings, or 1 cordelette... things you shouldn't be desperately running out of....

[JBrochu]

It's actually very quick. Quicker than screwing around with a cordellete for sure.

[DMan]

It's actually very quick. Quicker than screwing around with a cordellete for sure.

LOL

FOUR clove hitches, a figure 8 on a bight, and a butterfly knot...

Yup, that's faster than ONE figure eight on a cordelette... (with a clove to anchor in)...

LOL

I would love to put money on this claim...

To be honest, I use 1 shoulder and 1 double length 90% of the time as it is faster than a cordelette as well... especially for a partner to break down...

This setup also fails if you are not swinging leads... and on long routes leading in blocks is better, so fail fail fail...

[JBrochu]

I don't do the butterfly and I don't do the redirection point (just leave a little loop of rope hanging there), so for me it's only 4 cloves. If you get the length of any arm wrong it's super quick to adjust since you can just fiddle with the clove. Also breaking down the cordelette and folding it up neatly takes a little bit of time.

Other benefits: If a piece fails there is zero to minimal extension, you need to tie overhand limiter knots in each arm of a cordellete to approximate this, or else accept some possible extension. It's also much easier to keep safer angles between each arm than it is with a cordellete.

My other main reason for occasionally using this method is my partners hate using cordelletes, so I've basically stopped using them too.

Edit to address leading in blocks and swapping leads: Yes, those are some fair points. I never said this is the best method for every situation. Clearly you are very emotionally attached to your current method being best. My point in posting the pic was to explain why I asked about the safety of the tie-in loop. Rich Goldstone has a pretty strong reputation for safety, and he indicated that he often uses the tie-in loop rather than using the butterfly knot. He didn't indicate what he uses for a tie-in knot though.

[DMan]

So if you don't do the redirection point you belay the second directly off your waist? Not judging here... just trying to get a full understanding of advantages/disadvantages... I hate directly belaying 2nd's off my harness...

I completely agree about the breaking down a cordelette being a major time suck which is why my cordelette sits on the back of my harness 95% of the season without being used... as I said, the "combination" method seems to be super fast for what I do... YMMV

As for extension, not an issue with the combination method either... There isn't with the pre-equalized cordelette method so "you need to tie overhand limiter knots in each arm of a cordellete to approximate this" confuses me... no you don't... one figure eight after pre-tension eliminates extension...

Thanks for the pic, I didn't mean to seem like I was totally attacking the setup, just wanted to point out the obvious reason why he had added that butterfly loop... I don't know who Rick Goldstone is, but I'm glad he has a solid reputation. That rig is unnecessarily complicated, as you've admitted you've eliminated 2 key components from the photo (the butterflty and re-direct)...