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[JBrochu]

Just typed a long reply and accidentally hit some keyboard combo that evidently equals the back button. 

Anyway yes, I almost always belay directly from the harness. None of my partners fall on anything I lead anyway, but I could imagine for a guide it would be annoying having people hanging off your waist all day while you shout down, "use your feet ohh ya that's it you're a rock star you got it" all day long.

...one figure eight after pre-tension eliminates extension...

True--I didn't express my thoughts on that completely. Sometimes when you tie the  figure eight powerpoint and move into belay position you realize you got it wrong. So you can either redo it or accept a slightly unequalized leg. This was part of my thoughts about time since with Goldstone's method it's very quick to adjust the clove.

The other thing you can do is just use two sliding x's instead of the figure eight powerpoint. But then you have the problem of either accepting possible extension or tying those limiter knots.

Also if you use cordalettes a lot you get better at getting your powerpoint knot correct the first time. I know I used to struggle with that damn thing all the time though before I gave up cordalettes.

Goldstone is a pretty well known Gunks guy and a math professor. He's done some work with theory regarding anchor safety and I believe some actually testing as well. I don't know him but have read some of his stuff online here and there. I believe his ideas are sound and well regarded by the climbing community.

[strandman]

i must admit that i don't know what is going on here.. i tie in with a regular figure 8 and use 8's and clove hitches at belays   

[DMan]

Anyway yes, I almost always belay directly from the harness. None of my partners fall on anything I lead anyway, but I could imagine for a guide it would be annoying having people hanging off your waist all day while you shout down, "use your feet ohh ya that's it you're a rock star you got it" all day long.

While my clients rarely fall I just find belaying off the anchor to be less work (and easier rope management)... Trango Cinch year round, if the ropes are icy I use my ATC Guide...

Sometimes when you tie the  figure eight powerpoint and move into belay position you realize you got it wrong. So you can either redo it or accept a slightly unequalized leg...

This should take about 1 hour to master... DON't TIGHTEN IT until you move into belay position... problem fixed... plus... "slightly unequalized" rigs shouldn't matter if you know how to place solid gear... just sayin' there is way to much emphasis in perfect equalization when the focus should be SOLID placements and LIMITED extension...

Goldstone is a pretty well known Gunks guy and a math professor. He's done some work with theory regarding anchor safety and I believe some actually testing as well. I don't know him but have read some of his stuff online here and there. I believe his ideas are sound and well regarded by the climbing community.

Math Professor = too much info for 95% of the climbing community...

[JBrochu]

i must admit that i don't know what is going on here.. i tie in with a regular figure 8 and use 8's and clove hitches at belays   

Sounds too simple and not nearly convoluted enough... You know what that means...





Anyway, this link from American Alpine Institute seems to suggest using the tie-in loop is ok as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish.

http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2010/04/figure-eight-follow-through.html

After learning about this, many people ask why one might use the inside of the knot as a belay loop. In alpine climbing, a small percentage of climbers still use harnesses without belay loops. In technical terrain it's always better to have a belay loop, so those without one often simply use the inside of their knot. If this is something that you wish to do, it might be better to avoid all types of Yosemite tucks or finishes. Even better, if you're going to be on technical terrain, you should use a harness with a belay loop.

[DMan]

Anyway, this link from American Alpine Institute seems to suggest using the tie-in loop is ok as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish.

And also states it ONLY makes sense when using a harness without a belay loop... I agree... if you don't have a belay loop then you can do this... with a belay loop it makes NO sense to use it... but if you do, make sure you don't do the "unfinished" Yosemite finish....

[JBrochu]

Anyway, this link from American Alpine Institute seems to suggest using the tie-in loop is ok as long as you don't use the Yosemite finish.

And also states it ONLY makes sense when using a harness without a belay loop... I agree... if you don't have a belay loop then you can do this... with a belay loop it makes NO sense to use it... but if you do, make sure you don't do the "unfinished" Yosemite finish....

Right, but if it wasn't safe they would say never ever use it or you're going to die. Every reference I've been able to find suggests it's safe to use provided you use a figure eight without the Yosemite finish.

For the most part, everyone is going to suggest just using a belay loop for belaying, and I would agree. But as mentioned above sometimes I want to use that loop for the anchor set-up so I can avoid using that butterfly knot. It's either safe or it's not. No reason not to use it unless it's not safe right?

Edit: maybe I can donate a few new bolts or something to tradman in exchange for some pull testing with his truck on the tie-in knot loop.

[DMan]

But as mentioned above sometimes I want to use that loop for the anchor set-up so I can avoid using that butterfly knot. It's either safe or it's not. No reason not to use it unless it's not safe right?

For that purpose... safe enough... I can't see it getting a high enough load to fail...

It's all the other reasons I've listed to not use it IMO... but you are sold on Mr. Goldstone's setup (sans butterfly), so I couldn't convince you it's a huge waste of time/effort for little gain no matter what...

1 shoulder sling, 1 double length... faster, simpler, allows swinging leads, belay escapes, hauling, self-rescue, belaying off the anchor, blah blah blah... that Goldstone set up (sans butterfly), offers none of that...

YAY my 3000th post!   Oh God... this is my 3000th post....

[JBrochu]

Yes, all I care to determine is that it's safe to use the inside of the loop of a rewoven figure eight without the extra tuck. (Especially since I already got a dirty look from a climbing partner and I told him it was safe--so I really want to make sure I didn't misunderstand something that I read.) The rest of the stuff is like, just your opinion man! 

This method, like every other method out there, has its strengths and weaknesses. It's up to everybody to choose how they want to do things. I don't carry double slings or cordalettes anymore so this method is nice to know once in a while. And it really is quick you would be surprised. And while it would be a pain to haul using this method, belay escape would really be no more complicated for me than if I was tied into a powerpoint made from slings or a cordalette. (Since I'm belaying from my waist belay escape is essentially the same.)

Edit: actually skipping the butterfly knot makes belay escape pretty complicated while retaining the butterfly knot would keep it the same as if I was tied to a powerpoint made of slings.

[DMan]

This method, like every other method out there, has its strengths and weaknesses. It's up to everybody to choose how they want to do things. I don't carry double slings or cordalettes anymore so this method is nice to know once in a while.

Totally agree, in climbing there are many "good enough" ways, and a few "great ways" of doing things...

Out of curiosity, you carry zero double lengths and not even 1 cordelette? This seems limiting to me as one of my 2 nylon doubles is my multi-pitch rappel sling... and a cord can be cut up for v-threads, used for Ascension, etc... just many uses for a cord... I don't like cords for anchors but love them for everything else... what do you use?

[sneoh]

I've got an idea - let's ask John Long!! This thread is about him, isn't it?

[JBrochu]

Out of curiosity, you carry zero double lengths and not even 1 cordelette? This seems limiting to me as one of my 2 nylon doubles is my multi-pitch rappel sling... and a cord can be cut up for v-threads, used for Ascension, etc... just many uses for a cord... I don't like cords for anchors but love them for everything else... what do you use?

I use all shoulder length slings. Most of them are sewn but two are tied so I can sacrifice them backing up sketch rappel anchors and such. I just use one of the shoulder length slings to clip into the anchor when untying for rappel, and another one to extend my rappel device. Don't you find a double sling too long for your rappel sling? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by multi-pitch rappel sling.)

On my harness I also keep a tied triple sling, a 4 foot rescue loop, and a 2 foot rescue loop. This stuff always stays put for emergency use except the 2 footer doubles as my rappel backup cord.   

[DMan]

Out of curiosity, you carry zero double lengths and not even 1 cordelette? This seems limiting to me as one of my 2 nylon doubles is my multi-pitch rappel sling... and a cord can be cut up for v-threads, used for Ascension, etc... just many uses for a cord... I don't like cords for anchors but love them for everything else... what do you use?

Don't you find a double sling too long for your rappel sling? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by multi-pitch rappel sling.)

It is the perfect length, when I add a overhand mid-sling, to give me a long enough tether for clipping in mid-station, and a short enough "loop" to run my rappel device off of... n actuality the flat overhand is tied a little closer than half-way, bt definitely far enough up the sling to prevent any back-up friction hitch from reaching the rappel device...

[JBrochu]

Just curious:  am I the only climber here who has never, ever extended a rap device, used a sliding back-up knot, worn belay gloves, carried a knife, or used a cordelette?  I have not done any of these in 24 years of climbing.

I know several climbers that have never done any of those and at least one posts here, so no you're not.

[JBrochu]

It is the perfect length, when I add a overhand mid-sling, to give me a long enough tether for clipping in mid-station, and a short enough "loop" to run my rappel device off of... n actuality the flat overhand is tied a little closer than half-way, bt definitely far enough up the sling to prevent any back-up friction hitch from reaching the rappel device...

Hmmm, never thought of that. 

Just to be sure I understand... So you just girth hitch the double sling and then tie an overhand a little less than halfway, you clip into the anchor at the far end and your rappel biner clips into the short loop formed by the overhand? That overhand cannot slip when weighted?

[DMan]

It is the perfect length, when I add a overhand mid-sling, to give me a long enough tether for clipping in mid-station, and a short enough "loop" to run my rappel device off of... n actuality the flat overhand is tied a little closer than half-way, bt definitely far enough up the sling to prevent any back-up friction hitch from reaching the rappel device...

Hmmm, never thought of that. 

Just to be sure I understand... So you just girth hitch the double sling and then tie an overhand a little less than halfway, you clip into the anchor at the far end and your rappel biner clips into the short loop formed by the overhand? That overhand cannot slip when weighted?

Exacto-mundo... works great everywhere... no way body weight+ will roll that overhand (takes 700lbs+) and eliminates using a silly "PAS". and is MONEY when rapping steep MP...

To add to the security, this set up allows you to rap into a completely hanging stance, transfer weight to the anchor, and re-establish after pulling the rope with minimal effort... nothing beats it...