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[strandman]

Since I know little about avalanches, i will assume the X position for the remainder of the winter

[DLottmann]

Always a good idea

Wrapped up another avalanche course yesterday... report here:

http://davidlottmann.wordpress.com/2013/01/28/aiare-1-avalanche-course-12513-12713/

[lucky luke]

Lucky Luke: I don't get it-- you want to inform people so that they will enjoy climbing and learn through experience and good judgement and you recommend learning from a number of people you consider "masters" such as John Bouchard, Base, SA (who often posts here), Yvon Chouinard and his ice climbing book, Freedom of the Hills-- which according to you is the BIBLE ( I too have read it in several editions, starting with Edition 1, which I'm old enough to have bought when it was the only edition). (...) As I've continued to ski and climb and learn a bit more through avy courses, reading, and talking to more knowledgeable folk than I, (Dman among them) I have become safer (but NOT SAFE)--

I think that people must follow experience climber who bring you to learn by yourself. To protect your life with every experiences.

When a leader, make interdiction (like the avalanche report), insult you when you are doing a mistake and try to bring you by the hand to the good technique (I will teach you)...I am out. It is the most important difference between me and Dman.

Deep understanding, not superficial rules means that you must gather your information every where. What can you do and what can't you do is different for every one...so the avalanche danger is also different from one person to an other. althought I always consider that I am in danger.

Most of all, you most be able to climb in many situation and decide yourself your limit.

[JJ Jameson]

OK, I think I get it now.


So, the only knowledge worth having is what you learn or experience on your own?
Or what you read in Freedom of The Hills?

Anyone who uses a professional guide ( full disclosure... I am one...with 30 years of experience), to instruct them in some of the intricacies of the technical climbing world, is clueless, and wasting their time and money, being taught to be afraid? They should better have "deep understanding" rather than use rules that are based in real world scenarios , by full time professional climbers and snow scientists who actually do have years of real world knowledge and experience? They should sort it out on their own, like, say, the climbing party of twelve on Central Gully last week, instead of listening to the snow ranger who actually knows the mountain, and possible snow conditions? Tell me Champ: Would you take four rope teams of three up that climb in those conditions, with that avalanche bulletin? And be comfortable with those results?

[DLottmann]

JJ, the answer is clear, if you dig back into Champ’s (Lucky Luke’s) posts you’ll see he fully believes that you can not learn about avalanches without out being out in a gully during High Danger, and that he even feels the snow rangers can’t be trusted as they “just don’t want to come rescue me”.

He wants to help new climbers, but for some reason hates professional guiding, as we are “just trying to sell courses” and promote fear.

He has already said all that group needed was 1 or 2 good leaders and somehow they could have magically not triggered that avalanche... We all know 1 or 2 good leaders would have re-routed the group to Lion’s Head given the forecast/bulletin/local advice... but since LL couldn’t see 2-3 feet of snow from Pinkham he thinks it was a busted ice dam, not an avalanche...

Reality and LL have yet to meet I’m afraid...

[lucky luke]

So, the only knowledge worth having is what you learn or experience on your own?
Or what you read in Freedom of The Hills?

If you read freedom of the hill... you learn or experience by your own, specially if you read it after you went to a cliff and dont understand a situation. You will understand the situation and see many different option that you can train after to realize your goal.

If someone teach you that you must do that kind of knot, climb hard, avoid any situation higher than low danger condition, read freedom of the hill from page one to the end, ... he is not teaching you how to evaluate your situation and decide the best technique, he is teaching you what to do. I am out.

 

[DLottmann]

If someone teach you that you must do that kind of knot, climb hard, avoid any situation higher than low danger condition, read freedom of the hill from page one to the end, ... he is not teaching you how to evaluate your situation and decide the best technique, he is teaching you what to do. I am out.

Phew... glad I am not that guy!

[lucky luke]

Would you take four rope teams of three up that climb in those conditions, with that avalanche bulletin? And be comfortable with those results?

I could take 12 person in the same condition. I will take a leader to lead the pitches and avoid the deep snow. I will stay close to hm to have an eye on what he is doing. Instead of making four party, to avoid that people climb one over the other, I will have one party who lead the pitch with other following close togheter and with a belay at each pitches.

As a pointed rock stop the fall of a party, I am sure that nobody will hae an accident even if we trigger an avalanche...great time and, maybe a good adventure as seeing an avalanche is very stressfull and amasing at the same time.

But it is just an option to hiking a trail.

[triguy]

Luke, do you keep a copy of FOTH in your pack to reference against current conditions?

Kinda like the chick I saw at the gym this morning with a weight lifting for dummies book.....

[DLottmann]

I can't respond to LL anymore. Someone please respond to his post. "Weight-lifting for dummies" LOL!

[strandman]

I believe that Warren Hardings  Downward Bound should be the definitive climbing book    Learn how to tie in,belay and then go climbing.

[sneoh]

LL needs to spend some time with Coach Niland!

It just seems to me avy is not something you want to try to learn from a single book or by experimentation, similar to learning how to avoid water borne diseases, malaria, or STD!

[strandman]

Coach and I went ice climbing.. ONCE.. tells you how long ago that was

[DLottmann]

I could take 12 person in the same condition. I will take a leader to lead the pitches and avoid the deep snow. I will stay close to hm to have an eye on what he is doing. Instead of making four party, to avoid that people climb one over the other, I will have one party who lead the pitch with other following close togheter and with a belay at each pitches.

As a pointed rock stop the fall of a party, I am sure that nobody will hae an accident even if we trigger an avalanche...great time and, maybe a good adventure as seeing an avalanche is very stressfull and amasing at the same time..

OK, I will respond. You are over-confident and arrogant. To assume you could somehow have a different result with 12 people of limited ability in the exact same conditions is quite a stretch. “Avoid the deep snow”. It was noted the route conditions were too narrow to navigate around the wind slab. The only way to avoid it was to turn around, or better yet choose Lion’s Head given the copious amounts of local information and knowledge that was provided...

“Pointed rock stop the fall...” That was very fluke luck... do you really look down and think that little rock will catch us if we get avalanched so we’ll be OK?

Trigger an avalanche = great time for you... ya man... you crazy... seeing an avalanche is one thing, but it’s quite scary to be the one triggering anything but the smallest sluff or slab...

[strandman]

DMan- you are a glutton for punishment

I have seen avvies... that's enough for me. Why do you suppose it's called Gulf of Slides ??