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Author Topic: avalanches  (Read 5663 times)

OldEric

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2013, 05:09:05 PM »

Coach and I went ice climbing.. ONCE.. tells you how long ago that was :o

I did the Dike with Paul ~20 years ago.  On the crux rock traverse (neither one of us led it) he looked at me and said "I have no idea what to do - I feel like I am on a Whitey route".  Somehow we both did it cleanly.
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sneoh

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2013, 05:14:33 PM »

"I have no idea what to do - I feel like I am on a Whitey route". 
Only old gym rats like us know what Paul meant!  I miss those routes!  Fifteen moves, getting pumped, and you are only five feet off the ground!!
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DLottmann

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2013, 05:18:00 PM »

DMan- you are a glutton for punishment

I sure am!

I wanted to share this video with everyone, a fatality from CO last year due to a very small terrain trap. I use it in most my classes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdkdHFAjn5w

A 30 foot slope... doesn’t take much when conditions are ripe... check out the sugar at the end...
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strandman

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2013, 05:21:35 PM »

"I have no idea what to do - I feel like I am on a Whitey route". 
Only old gym rats like us know what Paul meant!  I miss those routes!  Fifteen moves, getting pumped, and you are only five feet off the ground!!
Try Whitey's Hard One down in the Woods sometime... short, skin ripping, V9 or so AND you won't do it
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sneoh

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2013, 05:22:58 PM »

Wow, quite sobering, DMan.
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

lucky luke

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2013, 03:14:02 AM »

It just seems to me avy is not something you want to try to learn from a single book or by experimentation, similar to learning how to avoid water borne diseases, malaria, or STD! :)
if someone don't know how to swim...he will shout at loud that every things over his head is considerable danger, a river with two feet of water will be moderate and even a pond with inches of water will gave you malaria.

Younger, we had four or five feet of snow per year. I constructed a "fort" in structure like corniches that we diig inside the slope. I walk on snow slab that broke on my weight, without danger of avalanches. I trained, trigger an avalanche is part of a training, and climb in many situation. I learned also by book and stories and video. I know that I did more than the majority of the climber and that it can be dangerous in the mountain. Avy courses is part of it.

But the thread is: is it more dangerous in a snow storm, when the snow slab is forming and stable (extremely dangerous awardness), or after a snow storm, when metamorphosis begin and slab are ready to fall and the weight of the snow is higher too...?

As I went to whiteout as you climb lion head, don't know how you can answer that question.
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DLottmann

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2013, 08:28:55 AM »

But the thread is: is it more dangerous in a snow storm, when the snow slab is forming and stable (extremely dangerous awardness), or after a snow storm, when metamorphosis begin and slab are ready to fall and the weight of the snow is higher too...?

As I went to whiteout as you climb lion head, don't know how you can answer that question.

I do know the answer to this question, and have already answered it. Here it is again.

Storm Slabs form and release NATURALLY during storm events, which is why when it is snowing more than 3cm per hour you can expect naturals to hapen. They can be just as destructive as human triggered avalanches (D4 wiped out 3 acres of 60 yr. old pine trees below Hillman’s Highway in 2008). Many gullies will avalanche multiple times in one snow storm. This is how the fan in Huntington gets filled in with snow, along with regular loading.

How quickly the danger from storm slabs goes away depends on a few factors, temperature, settlement rate, and underlying layer. While storm slabs may abate wind slabs can still form after a snow storm has ended if there is snow available for transport. So... different problem, different red flags to look for, but still could be danger.

Trying to state it is more or less dangerous during or after a snow storm is folly.
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lucky luke

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2013, 11:03:14 AM »

Trying to state it is more or less dangerous during or after a snow storm is folly.

Exactly what I think about your prediction on avalanches awardness... you are better to stay worm inside all winter long.

N.B. avalanches are dangerous, there is technique to master other than staying in an hiking trail

always think that advice from Dman is the opinion of one person, so it is for books and courses....but it is Your life.
Note in the golden time, where it was allowed to play in the backcountry, the mountaineering freedom of the hill was just a compilation of all technique that you can use to safe your life in climbing (no recommandation). Today, it is a receipe without deep understanding.
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DLottmann

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2013, 12:00:33 PM »

Exactly what I think about your prediction on avalanches awardness... you are better to stay worm inside all winter long.

As for “staying inside all winter long”, I bring 12 person classes into avalanche terrain during Considerable & High conditions, but we use careful terrain selection and avoid run outs and start zones of major avalanche paths and anywhere there may be a terrain trap.

From the course linked below:

<photo was too large, but can be seen at the link>

http://davidlottmann.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/finally-it-snowed/

I also encourage my students to tour/climb in all types of conditions, but to try to choose the correct terrain based on the bulletin, current conditions, and their own level of knowledge and risk acceptance. Rarely do I ever suggest “just stay home”. There are always options that can allow one to recreate safety in the mountains.

Your personal level of risk acceptance sounds higher than the average person. That’s ok, that’s why it’s “personal” level of risk acceptance.

However your disregard for the advice of professionals who live & breathe this stuff, both guides, instructors, and USFS Snow Rangers is quite rare.

Every local climber and guide I know respects the opinion of the USFS Snow Rangers, and bulletins produced by forecast centers all over North America, www.avalanche.org

While my advice is only the opinion of one person, it comes from 100’s of days in avalanche terrain, 100’s of hours of taking courses and attending seminars, multiple trips out west to travel in different snow climates, conveying what I’ve learned to 100’s of students over many dozen courses, and it all started in 2002 after watching 2 people get killed in Tuckerman in an avalanche right in front of me...

http://www.mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/search-rescue/incidents-accidents/2002-2003-summaries/

You are right. It is YOUR LIFE. You owe it to your friends and family to learn everything you can. No one course will make someone “safer” in the backcountry. In fact, statistics show people who have taken a course have a higher percent chance of getting caught in an avalanche. The truth is these are the people that usually spend more time in avalanche terrain, especially as avalanche education has become more refined, effective, and available in the last 10 years.

There are many resources out there for those who want to learn more. Other than avalanche.org avtraining.org is great. Not everyone learns best from books & websites, so group learning in a course is another great option.

I forget who said it but “There are no masters in avalanche education. The masters are all dead.” The point is the learning NEVER stops... there is a lifetime of information to try to absorb, comprehend, and apply to your future climbing/ski trips. It’s an awesome topic to dig into, at least for me.

Lucky Luke (Champ), I think we often are saying the same thing. “Deep Understanding” is a great goal. But I’ll end on this Appalachian pro-verb:

“It’s not what you don’t know that will get you killed, it’s what you think you know that just ain’t so.”

I’d say this topic has run its course, but hopefully the 1,500+ views have been helpful for some.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 12:03:41 PM by DMan »
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lucky luke

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2013, 12:26:30 PM »

I bring 12 person classes into avalanche terrain during Considerable & High conditions,

but all the rest of the people are stupid and can't do that. foolish you said??? arrogant I think

I am sure that you have a lot of more insult for people that you don't wrote.
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JBrochu

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2013, 12:27:08 PM »


Exactly what I think about your prediction on avalanches awardness... you are better to stay worm inside all winter long.

N.B. avalanches are dangerous, there is technique to master other than staying in an hiking trail



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DLottmann

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2013, 12:38:37 PM »

I bring 12 person classes into avalanche terrain during Considerable & High conditions,

but all the rest of the people are stupid and can't do that. foolish you said??? arrogant I think


Please show me where I called any of them “foolish” or “stupid”. I questioned their judgment, as did the rest of the community. You, I called arrogant, and I stand by that accusation.

There is a difference between bringing 12 people into the ravines and staying out of run-outs and bringing 12 people into a start zone of a Considerable rated gully. How do you not understand that?

Terrain Selection. It is the most important decision and a big part of AIARE’s Decision Making Framework.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 12:41:23 PM by DMan »
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lucky luke

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2013, 12:47:59 PM »


OK, I will respond. You are over-confident and arrogant. To assume you could somehow have a different result with 12 people of limited ability in the exact same conditions is quite a stretch. “[...]

Trigger an avalanche = great time for you... ya man... you crazy... seeing an avalanche is one thing, but it’s quite scary to be the one triggering anything but the smallest sluff or slab...


But you are a lot better than me...mostly to insult people
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xcrag_corex

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2013, 12:52:32 PM »

someone is about to hit their Karma Bicentenial....who's gonna do it?
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DLottmann

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2013, 12:54:57 PM »


OK, I will respond. You are over-confident and arrogant. To assume you could somehow have a different result with 12 people of limited ability in the exact same conditions is quite a stretch. “[...]

Trigger an avalanche = great time for you... ya man... you crazy... seeing an avalanche is one thing, but it’s quite scary to be the one triggering anything but the smallest sluff or slab...


But you are a lot better than me...mostly to insult people

Whatever man, not trying to insult you. But you think you could have magically led that group through that area in that condition and are positive you would have had a different result. That is highly unlikely, but you sound sure of it. That = arrogance + over-confidence.
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