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Author Topic: avalanches  (Read 6639 times)

sneoh

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #120 on: March 08, 2013, 06:35:47 PM »

Geez, Dave.  Do you have to spoil it? :)  There I was, HOPING we could make it through some good early Spring climbing before the TvsS BS starts to fly again.  Besides, Champ KNEW no better, since the places he regularly  rock-climbs at (Cathedral and Canon) won't be much good until the "hanging" snow and ice mostly fall/melt away.
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DLottmann

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #121 on: March 08, 2013, 08:06:28 PM »

As the self proclaimed avalanche expert on the board, where exactly have you climbed outside of New England?   Do you have experience on other ranges?

I’ve spent time in the San Juans in Colorado, Red Mountain Pass, Gore Pass, all out of Silverton. Continental Snow Climate. I’ve toured in Steven’s Pass, Washington, quite well known for it’s avalanche terrain (Maritime snow climate). No real experience in Transitional Climates yet (Utah). Some higher stuff in the Andes in Chile but it was lift-serviced and before I had any understanding of the hazards.

I won’t call myself an expert... there are NO “experts” in snow science. As a prominent forecaster at the top of the field said in 2008, “As a so-called “expert” in the avalanche forecasting industry, the only certainty was that after 15 years into my career, I felt that I was barely good enough to do the forecaster’s job well.”

While not an “expert”, I spend about 4 days a week all winter long dedicated to understanding the concepts of safe travel in the back-country, and how better to share them with both complete newbies and seasoned back-country travelers who may have some mis-conceptions to correct... That’s about 45 dedicated days a winter thinking about this topic... that’s taking 12 people into avalanche terrain in all conditions every weekend...

While not an “expert”, Shepard’s Pie, I think I have some info to share.

None of the concepts we learn about in a structured course mean ANYTHING without post-course real life experience. This is stressed during our “course close”. We need to travel in terrain appropriate for the conditions and our understanding to learn. LL often likes to say “we teach fear” or tell people not to go because we don’t want to rescue them.

That is bullshit, and shows he does not understand modern avalanche courses.

The fact he states below the Central Gully accident was attributed to just a simple position mistake while trying to get a better camera angle is ridiculous... there were half a dozens red flags before that decision... but he would ignore them and focus on that one...

A complete understanding of the science behind Surface Hoar is not needed to make good choices in the back-country, but he spends paragraphs explaining how he knows more about it and is therefore safer...

Bottom line, I think the gif. shit is actually more annoying than Champ’s rants... and it may be time to check out of here for a while...

I can’t waste time on this shit anymore, I have another avy course running now and need to prep for tomorrow’s field trip.
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DLottmann

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #122 on: March 08, 2013, 09:37:01 PM »

...Basically Luke states that a broad based experience and working knowledge trumps paying for classes to get a certification, which is undeniable.  There was a time not that long ago when the old Lions Head winter trail was considered safe by the powers that be, and we all remember how that worked out.

The constant need to be right and have the last word causes a circular pissing match that makes Dman look petty IMO.  I would never trust a guide that has all the answers and is unwilling to use common sense to learn and grow.

Then we have google .gif search guy who has nothing intelligent to add, so he tries to be funny and demeaning.  I wouldn't rope up with either of them.

To address these points with more specifics... I think there is some bad rap left over from avalanche courses in the last decade... my first few courses (as a student), were confusing, spent to much time focused on digging pits (not relevant for our snow climate issues), and missed the big picture.

"I would never trust a guide that has all the answers and is unwilling to use common sense to learn and grow.”

Neither would I. I only answer questions I know, or help people find the resources they need to answer them, and continually explain that practical experience is crucial to application. This is a 3 day course... how can it be more valuable than a lifetime of practice?

As LL/Champ calls it, “train for the avalanche”...

Yes, experience is CRUCIAL... but why toss out all the research and case studies of the last 10 years to just say “experience is better than paying for a course”....

You can definitely find courses that you didn’t get your money’s worth...

I was thinking today about this vrs. sky diving... would you spend 3 days and less than $400 to learn how to skydive more safely?

The 24 hour course is a foundation... it’s up to the climber/skier to build the house...

It’s not LL/Champs personal attacks at me that piss me off... I could care less really... it’s his attacks of the USFS Snow Rangers, their bulletin, and well accepted wisdom that pisses me off.

Even his beloved FOTH states map & compass are the 1st two things you pack, yet he likes to defend folks lost without them as they are somehow “training” by sleeping in “wind shadows”... discredits his own personal bible...

I stick around because I like sharing info here. Two days ago a member PM’d me for advice on climbing in Katahdin this week without having a avalanche forecasting center and I spent a half-hour on the phone sharing what I know about the area and how to pay attention to what is relevant... He took a course with me 3 years ago but hadn’t had much practice since...



« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 06:09:32 AM by DMan »
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lucky luke

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #123 on: March 09, 2013, 03:11:25 AM »

What is the difference between dying (or paralyzed for life) due to stupidity or a "simple" mistake?
It is not the same as failing a written exam because of being pissed drunk the night before versus making a bunch of "silly" mistakes.

Dying due to stupidity: you don't know your technique, talked like an expert abut the equipment and don't trained in real situation. What ever you do, your stupid if you have an accident. If a party go to mt Washington and plan a week end, whatever the weather, he will want to climb. If someone tell you that the danger is moderate, your stupid, so  don't climb, you will show him a part of your hand.  The only way to save the guy...it is to show the good example: stop climbing! If nobody climb, nobody will do stupidity.

Dying due a "single" mistake means that the guy was good, maybe better than me. If he can make mistake, why can't I make mistake too! As I can make mistake, I will ask myself at each foot placement if I make a mistake or not, I will trained for that. Curiously, there is a rating for the difficulty of climbing, but there is no rating for safety. A beginer most be more aware of his safety than the level he climbed.

The difference is not for the people who died, but for those who will climb tomorow. Futhermore, when you have an accident, you will be more concern about warning the other in Accident in north american mountaineering than trying to eliminate the proof. Climbing after drinking all night long is a test for those who go to climb 8 000 meters, like mt everest. Maybe is better to go with someone in good shape the next day, if it is what you are saying. It is a solution and It is not stupid   
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lucky luke

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #124 on: March 09, 2013, 03:47:35 AM »

Yes, experience is CRUCIAL... but why toss out all the research and case studies of the last 10 years to just say “experience is better than paying for a course”....

First time I talked to you I talked about a music, Peter and the woolf (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr25umYkxe4 for a waltDisney production: good entertainement for children and classic music). The story is the one who shout that he saw a wolf one time, two time and the last time...nobody listen to him.

Second time, you said that the hardiest time you had in snow storm is when you bail of omega and the only run out is upper refuse at cathedral.

Third time is the difference between  hoar ice and metamorphism.

Who are you to told some one else when they can climb and when they can't? Climbing is one of the sport where the autonony of the climber is more important. You can trust your leader and follow his decision...if as a leader he listen to you before making a decision.

Guiding is your job and a great one, with children, it is important and I think at your situation. I am for courses. If someone want to climb ice, read an accident where you said that a women was stupid and take a course to not be stupid...and go to hike lyon head instead of ice clmbing fun route, it is not bad.

If someone want a course to be able to avoid dangerous situation as he travel around the world...he most know the difference between hoar ice and metamorphism of ice. He most know that mistake happen and it is not because he is stupid. It is because he don't train. And actually, the mentality of the avy center is to stop the climber who want to train because they don't want to rescue them.   
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triguy

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #125 on: March 09, 2013, 07:49:01 AM »

Do you do drugs, Danny?
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Ice has two purposes in life: climbing and watering down bad scotch!

sneoh

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #126 on: March 09, 2013, 07:50:09 AM »

LL,
You misunderstood my analogy but that is OK since you provided an explanation of your point which is
"The difference is not for the people who died, but for those who will climb tomorrow."
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DLottmann

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2013, 08:34:49 AM »

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OldEric

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2013, 09:21:35 AM »

Maybe instead of an outright ban the solution should be to institute a quota - a limit of 3 posts a day for LL and DMan.  It hasn't gotten there yet but I assume that soon we will be hearing "Your mother wears army boots" from each of them.  I have to wonder if either of them has a job?  A life?
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lucky luke

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #129 on: March 09, 2013, 10:50:06 AM »

Maybe instead of an outright ban the solution should be to institute a quota - a limit of 3 posts a day for LL and DMan.

As I missed the analogy of sneoh, it can be good to take time to understand what the other say and let more people writing.

We are not just the two of us who may have restriction. Jbrochu with his picture. One his fun, many is too much.

Trol definition is: In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3]

I wrote too much and I don't like it, but I really think that I am not a troll. I try to promote the spirit of a majority of climber: "read ANAM to learn from the mistake of others so you can come home safely and climb again tomorow". Safety is in every climbing subject.
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sneoh

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #130 on: March 09, 2013, 11:00:19 AM »

I wrote too much and I don't like it, but I really think that I am not a troll.
YOU THINK you write too much?  Surely you jest! 
No, you are not a troll but you can be darn annoying.
I think you mean well but you REALLY need to work on your approach and communication skills (especially true when there is a language gap).
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lucky luke

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #131 on: March 10, 2013, 10:31:25 PM »

YOU THINK you write too much?  Surely you jest! 
I don't jest, it's take a lot of time and looking at all that negative thing take me away from my first goal: climbing for fun. Not hard, not like  Mr X., just climbing an exopse situation where the knowledge and physical condition is important.

I want to climb more than to write.
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old_school

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #132 on: March 11, 2013, 11:26:41 AM »

Avalanches are dangerous...stay out of them.  :P
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DaveR

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #133 on: March 11, 2013, 12:45:21 PM »

Avalanches are dangerous...stay out of them.  :P

You must have taken one of the advanced classes to learn that! ;D
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old_school

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Re: avalanches
« Reply #134 on: March 11, 2013, 12:55:26 PM »

You must have taken one of the advanced classes to learn that! ;D

 ;D
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"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."
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