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Author Topic: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?  (Read 908 times)

darwined

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Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« on: February 06, 2013, 09:10:13 AM »

How is this properly done, specifically around a tree or boulder?  Are there do's and don'ts from an efficiency stand point?  Are there do's and don'ts from a safety stand point?  If you intend to lead the next pitch too is it better just to use a cord?
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wivanoff

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lucky luke

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2013, 11:52:45 AM »

How is this properly done, specifically around a tree or boulder?  Are there do's and don'ts from an efficiency stand point?  Are there do's and don'ts from a safety stand point?  If you intend to lead the next pitch too is it better just to use a cord?

It happened to me that I take all my sling and have to anchor with the rope. As I had nothing else it is the best way to do it. In snow, you can use two very distant protection and tie in correctly with a rope, what you can't do if you don't have enought sling. In both case, it is a leading decision for me. If I use too much sling in the lower part of the pitch, I won't have any higher. So, as I clim'bed, I have to decide if the protection worth a sling or not. Some times, it is better to ave a longer sling and fall safe than to have no anchor at the top. it happen that you find a good place at the end of the rope.

Personally, I always tie to the anchor with the rope, versus with a daisy chain or sling. It gave me the extra free place to move on the anchor and I can always make safety manipulation to help my second if I have to belay off the anchor. But I tie on a main anchor and on a protection.

I never tie in directly in my harness with a sling (as far as I know to never say never in climbing). It gave me no rope stretching.
 even if three feet of dynamic rope is not a lot.

With bolt, the question don't worth and answer, because you can top rope your second directly on the anchor. In snow, it can be chalenging because the anchor is not as solid as rock (boot belay for example). In boot belay, the rope is mandatory. It is part of the adventure and those technique have to be train with your partner by simulating a situation or/and climbing route with that kind of chalenge.   
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DMan

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2013, 12:38:07 PM »

How is this properly done, specifically around a tree or boulder?  Are there do's and don'ts from an efficiency stand point?  Are there do's and don'ts from a safety stand point?  If you intend to lead the next pitch too is it better just to use a cord?

Your question is quite broad with many possible answers. I agree with LL on everything he said (hell just froze over), but I'll add some thoughts on some situation specifics;

1) If you are leading the next pitch I don't think using the rope is the way to go. Much easier to use a cord or double length  to quickly equalize and create a "master point" for the second to clip into. For true experiences alpine minimalists on double screw anchors using BD Turbo Express screws (two carabiner holes in hanger) I could understand using the rope... but that is the exception...

2) The easiest and best place to use the rope IMO is after topping out the climb when you are going to use a solid tree anchor anyways. Walk around the tree, walk back towards the edge of the climb, grab both strands a few feet above your tie-in, and make a doubled overhand on a bight to belay from. This simultaneously anchors you in so you can yell off belay and creates a convenient spot to directly belay off the anchor from, with zero gear. Guides use it all the time at the top of the route...

3) If you are swinging leads, then tying in with the rope can be fast and easy... or painstakingly over-complicated and slow... It takes quite a bit of practice to do it quickly, with the only advantage being you saved using your cord or a double length... for these methods I would suggest you read and practice what was already linked to: http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2590836;page=unread#unread

Bottom-line, I definitely don't use the rope if doing all the leading (except at top-out), I "might" use it if swinging leads, but on a long route I prefer to lead in blocks, so I only swing once... It's good to know and practice using the rope for those times you come up short on gear... one more trick for you bag...

On a related note I think most people could benefit from learning to build equalized 3 point anchors with just a double length... by cord never leaves my harness with the exception of setting up a TR anchor on a big tree...
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strandman

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2013, 06:12:39 PM »

Luke and DMan are both wrong- you tie in with the rope ..period.  Clove and figure 8 makes things bomber.  This bullshit about cordaleetes and daisies and slings is to make things easy for guides and sell gear.

get to a tree .. tie a good sized fig 8 , bring it around and clip in   DONE

Swinging leads ? easy you already have the second through a bit of the belay.. get going.. no  fucking around

Guees climbing with Bouchard still gets to me

Oh yeah .. NEVER belay the second off the anchor  THROUGH the anchor

preaching is done
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sneoh

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2013, 08:37:05 PM »

I noticed this being under Ice&Winter climbing but here goes anyway .....
By belaying the second directly OFF the anchor I assume it means the belay device is on the anchor and not on you.  And belaying THROUGH the anchor means the belay device is on you and there is a biner/draw on the anchor and the rope redirected through this biner/draw.  Is this right, John?
So, how does one rig the Petzl Reverso in self-braking mode when bringing up the second?  Always try to set a higher piece of pro and have the Reverso there?  I have never used the Reverso in self-braking mode ....

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DMan

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2013, 08:51:40 PM »

Luke and DMan are both wrong- you tie in with the rope ..period.  Clove and figure 8 makes things bomber.  This bullshit about cordaleetes and daisies and slings is to make things easy for guides and sell gear.

OK Strand, the vast majority of non-guided climbers out there are not using the rope to “build” anchors these days. That’s just my observation from 20 years from CA, NV, CO, NC, NY, MA, NH, and ME... granted, limited to your experience... but saying that “makes things easy for guides and sell gear” is a Lucky Luke worthy statement...

Seriously, if you are doing all the leading please explain how taking 1 or 2 seconds climbing multi-pitch can be easy just using the rope to equalize anchors... I would like to know, as I will gladly use less gear if possible...
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DMan

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2013, 08:54:15 PM »

Quote from: strandman link=topic=7532.msg55910#msg55910 date=1360192359
get to a tree .. tie a good sized fig 8 , bring it around and clip in   DONE
[/quote

OK, quite close to what I said about walking around the tree, except I assume you are belaying directly off your harness? Something I hate doing... but no biggie...
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DMan

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2013, 08:56:58 PM »

Oh yeah .. NEVER belay the second off the anchor  THROUGH the anchor

You are talking about “re-directing” through the anchor, which doubles the load to the anchor... belaying directly off the anchor is preferable on anything but a questionable anchor...

By saying “NEVER belay the second off the anchor” people are visualizing direct belays off the anchor, i.e. Munter Hitch, Reverso, ATC Guide, etc...
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DMan

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2013, 08:57:42 PM »

...
So, how does one rig the Petzl Reverso in self-braking mode when bringing up the second?  Always try to set a higher piece of pro and have the Reverso there?  I have never used the Reverso in self-braking mode ....

Read the instructions that come with the device... but to answer, if you have a master point install the reverso there....
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sneoh

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2013, 09:15:37 PM »

I have read the PDF for Reverso 3.  It appears to instruct mounting the device on the anchor directly.
Whether belaying directly off the anchor or redirecting the belay through the anchor, it is doubling the load.  Am I wrong?
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DMan

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2013, 09:51:08 PM »

Yes, you are wrong. Directly off the anchor = force of 1x... re-directing through the anchor = force of 2x...

The PDF probably shows it mounted off a master point, or a BOMBER point, i.e. a new bolt... for ice climbing I would recommend the master point...
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neiceclimber

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 12:27:41 PM »

I do and I don't. If I'm at a comfortable ledge and have slings or cord left then I might create an anchor without using the rope. Often times when I do use the rope it is to extend out from the anchor to get to a good stance. I find myself using the rope more often while ice climbing than rock climbing. Swapping leads is not a problem the rope should be coiled for this. Leading in blocks can be trickier but with careful rope management you can flip the coils or do a pancake flip. 
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strandman

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2013, 02:00:39 PM »

I'm with Strandman.  I use just the rope about 98% of the time.

DMan- you KNOW i had to say something after you agreed with LL   :)

I don't really care if 99.99 % percent of all climbers use a cord.. I never will.. you climb on a 10mm line and then anchor with a 7mm ? doesn't make sense to me

I have several cordalettes  10mm-11mm and lengths up to 80meters   >:(
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M_Sprague

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Re: Do you anchor with the rope? Why? Why not?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2013, 05:59:08 PM »

People are mentioning redirecting the belay through the anchor doubles the load, but doesn't the lifting of the belayer (assuming they are hanging below the anchor) make it more dynamic, likely sprading out the impact over time. I have always been a believer in bomber belays, which makes the whole question somewhat mute, though I understand you may not have that with ice.

Also, belaying the second up, if they fall, it is not likely going to generate a lot of force. If you are worried about the belay holding then, I sure wouldn't want to be relying on it when they climb through. Once they are leading and have clipped a piece, how would belaying through the anchor increase the force? If they fell before the first piece, I would think you would particularly want the catch to be dynamic. If my leader took a fall factor 2, I would feather the belay.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 06:12:18 PM by M_Sprague »
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