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[DMan]

I just came across this, heard something whispered during ice fest...

http://rambleonblog.net/2013/02/19/amc-ice-program-second-weekend/

Summary someone fell from near the base of Dracula almost back to the tracks and required a carry-out, 2 broken ankles... AMC led trip...

[JakeDatc]

"we tried for a moment to assist him on his feet but determined he could not stand and put him back down."

umm.. ow?   does WFR or whatever not teach how to assess a fracture?    bump test.. compression...  both would have probably been (+)

[Adoherty88]

Yikes! This thread is in response to my blog post. As a disclaimer, my perspective is from that of a novice ice climber and not written for the climbing community. I debated posting it to my personal blog because I didn't want to shed any negative light on those involved. I feel compelled to note that although any accident can be picked apart and I'm sure climbers find ample fault to levy on me and my group, everyone acted responsibly and used error as a tool for learning in discussions after the event.

[ELM]

Good job Adoherty88 for helping out!! You were there and you spent your time helping someone..Good Job! Jake...I have seen many a doc say "can you stand on it" and testing before getting an xray. Training is a tool..not all of us use tools well  . I know you understand.

[JakeDatc]

Ok,  Someone with more advanced medical training, such as the guide.  Should know special tests for fractures so they do not have to have someone stand up on a fractured ankle.   It takes 10 seconds to do a compression test and a bump test and they could then use their time to splint it.   I don't know the extend of this fracture but  in worst or near worst case.. it's a tib/fib and they try to stand up on it and their ankle goes 90 degrees sideways..  now you have even more tissue damage than before.

just my view as a medical professional. 

[ELM]

And my view as a medical professional is that it all went well in the end. Yes a bump test is the ideal world senario and we would all teach someone to do it. However is seemed as if the first responders here were fellow climbers who were no so well versed. Heck I would have been far more worried about head injury anyway. In an ER when the SHTF you run off the seat of your pants alot...in the end if it all turns out well and someone ...say forgot to blow up the ballon on a foley or tape down and IV you laugh about it. For non pro's just coming to aid someone is a great thing: it may just stimulate them to go take a class and be more knowlegable.

[JakeDatc]

You don't think that a guide trained with WFR or higher should know to test for fractures especially when that was the victim's highest complaint?   If it was just some random folks out there then yea do your best  but guides should be held to a higher standard. 

I would worry about a lot of injuries with a fall that size..  i know it is an informal blog writeup so some stuff might not be in order or accurate  but calling for rescue or at least an ambulance to meet them at the road would have been high on the list to do. 

[Adoherty88]

Suppose I'll pop back in. Thanks for your response ELM--I tend to think that accidents do happen and everyone does their best with what they are given!

JakeDatc, it sounds like you have some great expertise and value your input on how the situation would be handled ideally. I should just point out that my other climbing partner was not a guide. He was just an experienced climber who leads hard ice and volunteered to take some enthusiastic folks out.

[JakeDatc]

Thanks Alissa.  That does change things a bit. 

Elm, I do think that a proper evaluation should be done if there are people qualified to do it present.  When someone goes down on the field,ice, court  I have to figure out what is going on and how bad.  I can't just send everyone to the hospital.... i also can't let anyone that wants to get up and play again if they are too injured.   I'm sure i've had kids lie to me and go back in a state they shouldn't have but because nothing bad happened doesn't mean it is right. 

[ELM]

   Jake..I'm happy that Adoherty88 clarified the situation as far as to the group dynamics.
   That said...I am not convinced that all guides in the MWV have WFR credentials. I hope most do but from a few of the situations I've seen...I'm not sure. I am sure Al and Dman will clarify.
   This is your quote here " I would worry about a lot of injuries with a fall that size..  i know it is an informal blog writeup so some stuff might not be in order or accurate  but calling for rescue or at least an ambulance to meet them at the road would have been high on the list to do."
  Ok...my first would be a head injury if they are alert...an yes an ambulance at the parking lot would be good. I would do a head-to-toe assessment and I would remove layers of clothing to check structures. You and I would do an assesment that is not normal for even most WFR trained folks. I would do an advanced neuro exam if they are a GCS 4,or below, I would ask for a litter and a rescue call...I would also insert an airway:I carry many. I would not call for a rescue if they are above a GCS 4 and I had enough bodies to move the person safely...mostly because of the punitive NH laws reguarding "rescues". 

[Bill]

Alissa - Thanks for your post.  It gave me, and I'm sure others, pause to think about their actions in various climbing pursuits, the potential consequences, how to evaluate the risks and how to mitigate them.  That is a valuable thing. - Bill

[JakeDatc]

I was spoiled for many years of having myself, a paramedic/combat medic, and WFR  as my normal climbing partners

I don't ice climb so the details of how close it was to the road changes my mind on the rescue bit.. an ambulance would probably be sufficient with a way to transport them to the parking lot in most cases from there.  hell if a firetruck showed up first like they usually do they would have a litter with them. 

[DMan]

....I am not convinced that all guides in the MWV have WFR credentials. I hope most do but from a few of the situations I've seen...I'm not sure. I am sure Al and Dman will clarify....

All I can say is it is a pre-req to have a minimum of a WFR to guide for EMS Schools, and I am confident that all guides working for the established guide services in the valley carry the same standard, especially if they are accredited by the AMGA, along with highly certified guides who work independently.

There are quite a few new faces guiding in MWV (though based elsewhere) that are not accredited by AMGA, so I can't speak to their level of certification/training, but it is considered an industry standard.

As has been said already, this was a volunteer trip leader for the AMC, not a guide. I would like to see the AMC tighten up a bit on these volunteer led trips, as I have seen too many sketch-fests with otherwise well meaning volunteers... A could of been fatal incident in The Cleft during Ice Fest comes to mind, but no accident = no issue right?

[ELM]

Today it seems like it's a no-lawsuit = no-issue policy for most.

[lucky luke]

I should just point out that my other climbing partner was not a guide. He was just an experienced climber who leads hard ice and volunteered to take some enthusiastic folks out.

Many of us take people to go climbing. even if I think that good (and some are not) courses are valuable, learning from a leader is indispensable and the amc group is a place to meet those guy. As the trip is plan two or three weeks before the even, and we don't know the weather at that time. But the climber want to climb and have fun.

As a leader my major concern is how to protect my second and, only after it is what I want to climb. It is a boring situation when some one without experience or reading and avy danger think that he know every thing about the danger of the mountain, contest some of your decision and do more dangerous think than where you bring the person.

Actually, I don't think that the leader push the person injure. It was an accident that can happen to every body who go up hill with the condition that we have (an electricien going to a tower at the top of a hill for example). I was there last week end and I saw a guy going up hill without any notion of step kicking. The fault, in my opinion, is the fault of those guy that say that you most cimb hard, ridiculise leader by using picture or insult. They are more the real reason of the accident. People don't take the time to learn the basic of climbing...too easy for them!!!