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Author Topic: First Aid  (Read 2534 times)

DLottmann

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2013, 06:19:35 PM »

When I was climbing in remote area, nobody around 20 miles away, I told my second to do nothig to save me...so he won't be hurt. 
...

I would be scared shitless if I was a new climber and the leader told me this... WTF a I doing here? What’s going to happen? Do I need to cut the rope?

Holy drama Batman...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 06:23:31 PM by DMan »
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DLottmann

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2013, 06:22:52 PM »

I aggree that a WFA should be a base for everyone. However I have to say that the class costs are getting expensive; NOLS has it from $135-$220. I would love to see a one day clinic for $75. It could be a totally non-cert class but built for climbers/backcountry skiiers who want advanced firstaid skills.
Heck if I could figure out the frame work to do it I'de do a 10 hour class like that for climbers.

i know  some guides who used to do a day  thing, with rescue , first aid etc....  I think it would be well attended.

I think all the guide services offer “Self-Rescue”, but the issue is you can not teach leader rescue, rope ascension, hauling systems, counter-balance rappels, load transfers, belay escapes, splinting, dealing with head trauma, open fractures, dislocations, etc. etc. in one 8 hour course...
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strandman

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2013, 06:28:22 PM »

maybe we should just teach --cut the rope.  simple , effective and satisying
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lucky luke

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2013, 08:57:35 PM »

I would be scared shitless if I was a new climber and the leader told me this... WTF a I doing here? What’s going to happen? Do I need to cut the rope?
I climbed with a doctor, so he new all about first aid. but he didn't know all about the danger of a cliff. if I get hurt, it is my choice, not his.

As a leader, my first duty is to protect him. My second learned to aid climb, do rap, stay calm in dangerous situation and plan a multipitch route before going in remote area. Often, when you try to "save' some one, you make two victims.

I saw many climber proud to have a first aid course, never say that it is not good to have the basic, but can not be efficient in rope technique. So, for me, a good course with a guide, is better than a first aid course. In aid climbing, you place a pro at each three feet. if you climb 150 feet, you place 50 pro. Who are going to be better in building an anchor: the one with a first aid course or the one with an aid climbing course? No anchor, no rescue. With a good anchor and inteligence, you can save some one else without first aid course.     
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JBrochu

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2013, 09:05:39 PM »

maybe we should just teach --cut the rope.  simple , effective and satisying

It worked well for Simon Yates!
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DLottmann

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2013, 09:27:18 PM »

Who are going to be better in building an anchor: the one with a first aid course or the one with an aid climbing course? No anchor, no rescue. With a good anchor and inteligence, you can save some one else without first aid course.   

Which is why both skills are important. Self-rescue (technical skills), and wilderness medicine skills (WFA or WFR). Doesn’t help if you can build an anchor if you can’t recognize symptoms of a serious head injury or the difference between a broken tib-fib or femur... you may lower him safetly to the ground but not addressing ABC’s may make that point moot...

If you wish to climb multi-pitch trad you should aspire to be able to ascend a loaded rope, build an anchor,stop severe bleeding, stabilize unstable fractures, establish a counter balance rappel, and transfer a load (unconscious person) to a new anchor to continue rappelling.

Bottom line, rope work knowledge alone won’t save someone who just took a 30 footer, flipped upside down, and whacked themselves unconscious...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 09:32:14 PM by DMan »
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hobbsj

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2013, 09:35:55 PM »

Actually, Champ, you need to reread the laws.  Taking a course does not obligate you to anything other than to those in your party.  Acting as a citizen could cause more problems as the Good Samaritan Act does not permit you to try first aid and things you read in a book way back when without a course.  You would open yourself up for liability then as the act protects the average person acting in a prudent manner.  And there are some basic aspects of consent that a course may help you implement in to your approach that the average person may not realize, and therefore be a liability.  And a course doesn't force you to be a first responder.  In order to be liable, you have to have a duty to act.  If its somebody in your party, you have a duty.  If you see some guys three climbs over, you have no duty to act.  HOWEVER, once you initiate care, you have have accepted the responsibility and now have a duty and can not leave the patients until relieved by somebody of equal or higher training, obvious signs of death (depending on license type and environment), or the scene becomes unsafe.  And if something happens while you are administering care, you a re compared to the standards of practice of your certification/license and what your peers of equivalent license would have done in the same situation.  If I remember correctly, you are Canadian, and in all fairness, the laws may differ there and your statement may be accurate.  However, here in the US, you are off base.  But I agree with a lot of what you are saying otherwise.

Along those lines, the guide classes you guys speak of can open them up for liability too.  If somebody takes their class and f's up, the guides have no backing of certifications or organizations to show that they could teach classes effectively or that they had the capacity to allow you to walk away and competently apply those skills.  Again, scope of practice.  Things get complicated when cash is exchanged for a service like that.  Not saying its right or wrong.  But it is what it is.

I'll be the lone one to stand alone a bit on this one.  I do not think it is a huge thing to take a medical course.  If it interests you and you want to be prepared to handle those situations, go for it.  That's what first started me in my medical course.  Everybody thinks they can be a hero with whatever skill they learn, but reality is a bit of a bitch and always isn't as straight forward as the classes seem.  Armchair quarterbacks rattling off what should have happened are aplenty.  And you can really run in to trouble with people overstepping their scope of practice.  I remember one kid telling somebody to do this that and the other when person B was having some trouble breathing and cramping after a hard run.  I told him to back off, in a polite professional manner, and kid a literally said "hey man, I'm first aid trained I got this."  He was a bit dumbfounded when I rattled off my qualifications and told him to back off.

On the other hand, those skills are valuable.  Two days after my WFR years back, my then girlfriend crashed be bike on the trails and had a major bleeder in her leg.  Man was I jazzed to try to do something.  The some jerk EMT-P had to spoil the party for me.   (when she had her c-section I thought it was the coolest thing to see the doc jacking around in her.  My smile was huge and I didn't even look at her face.  So yeah, weird interests.)  But I still sent other riders in our group on tasks to ensure safety of the scene in a wilderness environment.  Things the jerk EMT-P didn't think of that seemed basic after establishing that mindset.  EMT-P wasn't a real jerk, just killed my fun.

On that note, the WFR course helped with the aspect of scene analysis, but that is something we climbers train to do when sizing up a climb.  In the end, the classes can be helpful and add another arrow to you quiver of skills, but nothing more.  My ball and chain is a doc, and I'll trust my safety in the vertical world to my long haired, ultra bearded, spastic hippy partner long before her as he can figure stuff out and problem solve to rescue me in that environment.  Just try to learn things when you can that make you a better climber and learn more skills.  The time spent going over different bailing methods for 30 minutes saved my ass more times than the 3 hours covering strokes and MI's in my WFR class.  But if my buddy starts getting chest pain on the hike, I would have been glad I had those 3 hours.  Its great to ramble off acronyms and what ifs, but you have to look at the reality of the likelihood you would be in an event to use the skills.  There's always a course you could take to learn this that or the other, like an avalanche course from trusted snow ranger ;) Certifications are great for protecting yourself from liability and knowing you learned the skills to a certain level, but the competency and ability to apply them is what counts.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 09:42:46 PM by hobbsj »
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lucky luke

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2013, 02:41:47 AM »

Just try to learn things when you can that make you a better climber and learn more skills.  The time spent going over different bailing methods for 30 minutes saved my ass more times than the 3 hours covering strokes and MI's in my WFR class.

As I said: "I saw many climber proud to have a first aid course, never say that it is not good to have the basic, but can not be efficient in rope technique"

we are saying the same or approximately. Better to learn things that make you a better climber and learn more skills. In accident in north american mountaineering, page 123, ed 2012, they report that fracture, laceration abrasion, bruise, sprain/strain, concusion, are the more commun and count for over 50% of the injury in accident. Althought some open fracture can be hard to treat, there is not really a reason to learn about strokes and many other things.

Personally, I have sling that I can untied and do a bandage with it, It happens one day when my partner sprinkle is ankle. He was able to walk down the 900 feet cliff and have to be with cruchess for a week. I also did six cardiac reanimation, lost three patient and save three. when it's happening, it is not like in a course. If you are a climber, you know that many people can't do a simple knot at 200 feet from the ground...remembering some thing that you learn in a course is elusive...unless you can climb multipitch without bolt or guide book to tell you where is the belay because when a person fall, it is often not just at the belay.

The belay...that is an other story many time more important than a first aid course, as I understand of ELM. In british where coming (canon) the anchor, at the pitch after the crux, is pratically deadly scary...even for me. The crux worth it, but I will not climb that route again.   
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strandman

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2013, 09:19:57 AM »

i was waiting for that shit hole, fucking book to be mentioned... i  never liked it and now.....
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DLottmann

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2013, 09:22:01 AM »

...there is not really a reason to learn about strokes and many other things.
...   

Non-climbing every day people would benefit from being able to recognize both the beginning of a stroke and symptoms of a heart attack. Lives are often saved when a family member or friend quickly recognizes these symptoms. A few years ago a 28 friend of mine had a stroke and if it wasn’t for his wife’s quick action it could have turned out pretty bad...
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ELM

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2013, 02:46:40 PM »

Dman..I think self rescue is seperate from First Aid. I was speaking just to the cost of the WFA classes. Self rescue classes have been on my "to do" list for a while and I think they'de be worth every penny. Now if you could only talk EMS into give them during the week and I'de be all set: I work weekends. :(
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Ed Matt
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Jeff

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2013, 04:26:31 PM »

Ed: I'm sure that if you could get 2 or 3 others interested, EMS could certainly provide a mid-week self rescue course--they are scheduled on weekends because more people looking for them are free then. There are certainly guides available to give a course during the week ( disclaimer: I guide for EMS--I don't do the scheduling, but any of our courses can usually be offered any day if a group forms and asks for a specific day or days ) ; contact the office and make a request.
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2013, 05:11:36 PM »

Please Correct me if i am wrong but everything I have experienced leads me to believe that it it is serious the #1 thing is to get the victim transported to a hospital ASAP?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 06:07:08 PM by tradmanclimbz »
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strandman

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2013, 06:16:45 PM »

Sorry Trad-- bleeding and breathing.. THEN hospital.  i know that alain Comeau and George Hurley used to do a one day rescue/aid deal , bitd.. WEMT I think ??

you cannot have enough knowledge about this stuff     LL

i stiched a bud's hand one time about 5 miles from the road... it looked bad, but i didn't hit anything serious and pretty sure got to him before shock set in.. anyway, he made it

geta wfa  just to deal with basics.. bee stings, bleeding etc

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tradmanclimbz

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2013, 07:18:28 PM »

My bad. I just assumed that you plug the leaks and keep the airway open then get them to an ambulence or hospital asap while you tell them how great they are doing. I hope to take a course this year time and money allowing.
 Working  as a photog in terrain parks and horse shows I have been 1st on scene dozens of times with no training. On the ski hill I would get one of their buddys to block off the jump,  take their skis or board off, make sure they are not squirming around and their spine is flat on the snow. don't let em get up.   If they are leaking real bad I give them a wad of paper towles  (lense tissue) and tell them or their buddy to use direct pressure. Not good for me to get involved with any more than that. as I am not qualified. patrol got there in 10 min usualy. sometimes a bit quicker but 10 min seems like a long time if someone is hurt. I would let patrol know if the kid had lost conciousness.

Horse shows I usually try to catch the horse and then stay out of the way. The EMT is there in 30 to 90 seconds.
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