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Author Topic: First Aid  (Read 2754 times)

tradmanclimbz

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2013, 06:39:36 AM »

dang, that was too easy :-*
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sneoh

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2013, 07:36:18 AM »

I thought Groundhog Day was about six weeks ago.  The horse has already been beaten into pulp, Champ.
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DLottmann

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2013, 10:15:48 AM »


As I state, for me, teaching climbing is teaching safety. Teaching safety is: 1-finding a dangerous situation 2- finding solutions to avoid the danger and 3- choice and execution of a solution.

Sounds like every Day 3 of an avalanche course I have led this year... look at that, we agree!
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DLottmann

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2013, 10:18:12 AM »

You take a course and sudently you are safe?

We agree again! Some statistics say you are more likely to be in an accident after taking a course. No course can guarantee your safety, it is up to you to get applied experience over time in order for anything you learned to be valuable...
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strandman

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2013, 02:25:55 PM »

What ?!
Of course you don't instantly "become" safe... taking a course won't kill you,  but not knowing how to stop bleeding might.
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2013, 05:32:35 PM »

If i can't fix you with a roll of hockey tape and a shirt, yer Gonna Die...........

at least that is what my ski patrol climbing buddys would tell me.....
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 06:41:14 PM by tradmanclimbz »
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lucky luke

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2013, 02:36:12 AM »

Some statistics say you are more likely to be in an accident after taking a course.

Do you have the statistic? I think that I don't understand

Take a course, you think that you are good and you are not so good...you have an accident.

No course, you think that you are not good but you still have some intelligence...you avoid an accident

I prefer to don't have an accident.

(I think that courses are good, some courses are good, not all
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hobbsj

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2013, 08:24:16 AM »

Interestingly, there was a study done on bike helmet laws.  I read it several years ago and don't have the link or reference.  You can use google scholar just as easily as me to find it.   It found that the number of injuries did not decline with mandatory use.  The theory behind it was that kids were taking bigger and/or more risks due to the security they felt from the helmet.  It had a few holes as some things were not accounted for, such as severity of the accidents, reporting of low speed crashes and possible correlations with increased bicycle use.  But still, there was evidence of that mindset.  Not necessarily the same as a FA course.  But the theory has been recognized.  Now I doubt a FA course provides a sufficient tool to make people think differently with their decision making.  "Dude, we can try that gnarly route now.  I know CPR."  I would think that mindset would be more aligned with an avi-course, two newbie partners taking a leader's course, or even a rescue/bail course.  And I wonder if the study that was referenced earlier showed increased involvement in accidents by people with medical training or in increased likelihood.  For instance, does the course really cause a change in decision making, or are the individuals now more likely to help out and get involved in the event of an accident.  Sometimes subtle word choice can get really twisted around when reading these studies.
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JBrochu

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2013, 10:22:10 AM »

I believe the stat dman referenced regarding being more likely to be in an accident having received training versus not is specifically about avalanche training. Presumably after training some people feel more confident pushing things a bit and maybe heading out into conditions that normally wouldn't attempt without training?
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DLottmann

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2013, 07:04:26 PM »

ďItís not what you donít know that will get you killed, itís what you think you know that just ainít so.Ē - Old Appalachian Proverb...

I can dig up the statistic later but it comes down to having formal training but low experience, and confidence can outweigh ability...

Itís essentially why courses are not valuable without applied experience in all walks of life...
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lucky luke

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2013, 02:21:01 AM »

Interestingly, there was a study done on bike helmet laws.  I read it several years ago and don't have the link or reference.  You can use google scholar just as easily as me to find it.   It found that the number of injuries did not decline with mandatory use. 

dont remember the year, it is in anam. They said that bolt don't lower the number of accident because accident is more a question of attitude than of accessory. As a course is an accessory, I can thing that some people use a course as a tool and it is a part of there bag of trick and other use it as a short cut to go faster to the high level.

It is why I don't like avy danger actually. if a guy climb a route, avoid the bottom slab by the right, cross over at the top of the slab to the rock, climb on ice/rock to the top of the next slab, climb two ice field and top out...even if you have an high avy danger, your risk is low. If you climb straight in the middle of the bottom slab...even in low avalanche danger, your risk is higher.

Actually, the avy don't make the distinction between the mature and green climber, between climbing outside the avalanche bed and inside it. It is a short cut to know the condition...and some courses, when you dont know your limit, is also a short cut.     
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Jeff

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2013, 08:29:31 AM »

There's another side to Dman's statement that there is a slightly greater chance of someone who has taken an avy course eventually getting caught in an avalanche; Most people who never go into avalanche terrain in winter never take an avalanche course :-\ It stands to reason then, that those who take courses have a greater chance of eventually getting caught-- they probably intend to travel in avalanche terrain in winter; it's not the fault of taking a course, but rather that people who take them are those at the greatest risk of exposure to the danger as a subset of the general population.
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Admin Al

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2013, 09:18:18 AM »

it's not the fault of taking a course, but rather that people who take them are those at the greatest risk of exposure to the danger as a subset of the general population.

I think that's correct...
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lucky luke

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2013, 03:02:28 PM »

it's not the fault of taking a course, but rather that people who take them are those at the greatest risk of exposure to the danger as a subset of the general population.

agree, there was a confusion. Better say now

Now do you think that all people use a short cut (took a course so I don't have to learn other technique) or they use a course and avy sign as a tool, not an order to climb or not climb?
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DLottmann

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Re: First Aid
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2013, 07:51:35 PM »

it's not the fault of taking a course, but rather that people who take them are those at the greatest risk of exposure to the danger as a subset of the general population.
... or they use a course and avy sign as a tool, not an order to climb or not climb?

this, and it is stressed throughout the course...
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