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Author Topic: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday  (Read 3467 times)

JBrochu

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2013, 10:20:44 PM »

"if you have accepted it"

Now there's an angle I hadn't considered.  That's pretty hardcore... and yep...who am I to judge?

So are you opposed to all soloing? Or just opposed to soloing when it results in death?
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Have a quiche, now, or maybe a tort.  You deserve it!
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darwined

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2013, 10:26:12 PM »

I never said I was opposed to soloing.  I've soloed and I can say I don't find it nearly as enjoyable as roping up with one of my friends.
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lucky luke

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #92 on: March 23, 2013, 02:04:10 AM »

I never said I was opposed to soloing.

let turn out the question, when are you for soloing?

I think that when some one led enought different kind of ice and can know the difference (brittel ice, diner plate, cauliflower, etc, when ther distance between his pro is longer, when he place his pro on easy ground and go faster on hard situation and maybe some other aspect...you must begin to solo to be stronger in your head. Maybe must is not the good term.

 
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2013, 09:37:04 AM »

You miss the point.. The anti solo crowd gets their pantys all in a bunch when a solid solo climber hikes their testpiece. They then justify their attitude by makeing a fuss when the rare accident occures.  The reality of the situation is that I will be safer soloing standard than many of the partys that pitch it out. That is a FACT that they can not grasp at their level.  Anytime you step into the verticle world we all play by the same rules of gravity. The difference between the solo climber and the roped climber is that the solo climber is acutly aware of the gravity situation and relys totaly on their  personal actions to stay alive. The roped climber  on the other hand relys on a system that they may or may not be useing correctly. Complacency or ignorance kick in and they go just as splat as solo climber who makes a mistake.  The roped climber who sits on their high horse declareing that solo climbers are iresponsible and will hurt access bla.bla,bla is one botched lower, poor gear placement, bad belay or blown rapell away from going splat themselfs.


 I seriously doubt that in this case the victim intended to solo the entire route. I feel he wanted to play really badly and no one would let him play with them so he figured he could boulder the very bottom super easy part and got in over his head imeadiatly..
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kenreville

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2013, 09:41:03 AM »

There's an "anti soloing" crowd? Really?

Can't say I've ever met one, but if so, I'd laugh in their face.
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2013, 10:13:57 AM »

there is. i was actually talking with one of them picking up after the rescue.
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mopowers

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2013, 11:52:54 AM »

This is getting crazy.
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kenreville

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2013, 12:30:35 PM »

You simply CANNOT protect people from themselves. Nor should you try to. If a soloist comes bombing off and takes you out, well then bitch away. Otherwise, it's not your's or anyone else's concern.

The only decision you have to make is whether you want to help the fallen climber out. Not to pass any judgement whether you "agree" with what he was doing.
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hobbsj

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #98 on: March 23, 2013, 01:14:48 PM »

You simply CANNOT protect people from themselves. Nor should you try to. If a soloist comes bombing off and takes you out, well then bitch away. Otherwise, it's not your's or anyone else's concern.


You don't get to bitch away!  You were an idiot for climbing under him or her. 8)  Just being a smart ass.
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sneoh

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2013, 01:41:23 PM »

Though I do not agree 100% with your position, you have made some good points, Ken and I think I might need to tweak my mindset.
This - "The only decision you have to make is whether you want to help the fallen climber out. " - is a good point but almost everyone's impulse is to help a victim out.  Acting against this impulse might weigh heavily on one's conscience,  especially if the victim dies from his/her injuries.  If I had helped, might his/her life been saved?
Allow me to recount probably the 1st rescue I was involved in; a gumby huffed and puffed up the trail, no gear to speak of, no harness, asked us where the "easy" routes were. We pointed at a 5.7/5.8.  He took a look and decided it was not to his liking and decided to solo an uncleaned, slime covered, broken section of the crag instead.  We were dumbfounded.  Sure enough, about 15 feet up, he slipped and landed loudly on his side.  Much moaning ensued so we ran over.  It was obvious that there was only injury to his hip and leg.  And some light bleeding from scratches and such.  Someone ran to get help while we stayed with him to keep him conscious and comfortable.  When help arrived, we thought we were going to have a fatality, not of the soloist but one of the helpers who was panting so hard I thought he was either going to have a heart attack, pass out, or both!  Long story short, injured guy was taken to the ER (I am sure he recovered from his physical wounds) and our plans for the day were done for.  To this day (many, many years later), I pack up as quickly as I can and leave whenever I learn of a soloist climbing nearby.  I suppose you could say I have a bad mindset but I did have a formative experience early on. 
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DGoguen

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2013, 02:03:45 PM »

When I left the gentlemen at the tracks, I smiled and said enjoy the rest of your day. If he told me he was going to solo Standard, I would have smiled and said enjoy the rest of your day. I would expect nothing less from someone else. Although, I would carry you all the way to North Conway after you pitched.
Maybe stop at the Moat on the way but hey.
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lucky luke

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2013, 02:41:11 PM »

You simply CANNOT protect people from themselves.
[...]
 Not to pass any judgement whether you "agree" with what he was doing.

tradmanclimb is one of his kind. His analysis of solo or rope up people versus safety show that he think about others and he gave a reason why someone can be trap at the bottom of standard and fall. I can't say the same when a person wrote that he smile and enjoy the rest of the day...as he didn't care about others. Asking what I can do for my budy climber is important for me.

So, by what we are doing, we can protect people from themselves.

tradmanclimb accuse some people to be antisolo. He have a large group of people who are angry about him because he solo he had good argument to say that some time he his more carefull than a beginer who rope up. On the other side, people don't like to see a solo climber because they are afraid of falling and if the solo guy felt, they won't climb any more (not very objective here, I think like tradmand).

So, if we don't pass judment, or agree with one of the other mentality, we can understand each mentality and decide which one is better for us and practice one of them without competing or be angry with the others.

>:(

What about trad and sport! :)

  :-[:D  you don't have to agreee, but understand each mentality... ;D ;D ;D

 :P :-*
   
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kenreville

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2013, 03:12:19 PM »

You simply CANNOT protect people from themselves.
[...]
 Not to pass any judgement whether you "agree" with what he was doing.

tradmanclimb is one of his kind. His analysis of solo or rope up people versus safety show that he think about others and he gave a reason why someone can be trap at the bottom of standard and fall. I can't say the same when a person wrote that he smile and enjoy the rest of the day...as he didn't care about others. Asking what I can do for my budy climber is important for me.

So, by what we are doing, we can protect people from themselves.

tradmanclimb accuse some people to be antisolo. He have a large group of people who are angry about him because he solo he had good argument to say that some time he his more carefull than a beginer who rope up. On the other side, people don't like to see a solo climber because they are afraid of falling and if the solo guy felt, they won't climb any more (not very objective here, I think like tradmand).

So, if we don't pass judment, or agree with one of the other mentality, we can understand each mentality and decide which one is better for us and practice one of them without competing or be angry with the others.

>:(

What about trad and sport! :)

  :-[:D  you don't have to agreee, but understand each mentality... ;D ;D ;D

 :P :-*
 

I REALLY REALLY R E A L L Y want to understand what you are saying!!! I read a sentence and just when I think I've got the point, you go sideways.

Anywhoo, I remember maybe 15 years ago when a young woman (20ish) and her parents had scrambled around the fence on top of Cathedral. The three of them managed to get down the slab at the top of Grim Reaper (sad irony), when the daughter pine needled off. 150ft, one bounce and done.

After the incident, there was talk amongst local officials to both raise and/or extend the fence. More signage, etc.

Now take a minute and think about that. Local officials, the GOVERNMENT, was gonna "protect" the masses. How high and far would that fence need be?

My suggestion at the time was to tear up the road, and REMOVE the fence. I'm a firm believer in Darwinism.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 03:25:59 PM by kenreville »
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DGoguen

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2013, 03:38:54 PM »

I can't say the same when a person wrote that he smile and enjoy the rest of the day...as he didn't care about others.

You really shouldn't cast aspersions on someone when you don't even understand what they said.
I said I smiled and told him to enjoy the rest of his day. Should I have tackled him and forced training on him. Geez Man.
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kenreville

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #104 on: March 23, 2013, 03:50:13 PM »

Methinks Luke thinks that he was laying on the tracks all busted up, and you saluted him and said have a great day. Seriously Luke, do you view your fellow climbers as uncaring savages? What would you have done? Talked to him in riddles until he just said fuggit and went home?
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