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Author Topic: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday  (Read 4646 times)

DLottmann

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2013, 09:45:23 PM »

Comparing a very accomplished nationally recognized climber with someone who’s own brother said “he is new and green to this sport” is a bit much...

I don’t think we are “branding” him, but trying to figure out what exactly happened here. No need to get so defensive... but all eyewitness reports and the brother’s comments add up to someone taking a pretty big un-calculated risk IMO... how many people ask for belays, even ask a stranger to “guide them”, before deciding to just solo it?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 12:24:44 AM by DMan »
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darwined

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2013, 07:40:02 AM »

There is no gray area in SOLOING(climbing is a bit different).  If you were soloing and need to be carried home in a litter YOU MADE A POOR CHOICE PERIOD! 

@Ken "way bogus"?  I help people whenever and wherever I can. 
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darwined

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2013, 07:51:18 AM »

I'm not making a judgement about the fellow's character, I'm simply saying that choosing to solo standard route, on a Saturday with climbers above, as a newbie ice climber was a poor choice.  There is no other way to spin it.
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RCorry

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2013, 07:59:43 AM »

Is it fair to start the discussion regarding decision making and why this climber decided to solo this route. With all due respect to both the victim and his brother who has joined this thread, this needs to be addressed. Ice climbing is becoming much more popular and it feels like we keep seeing more and more inexperienced climbers taking really foolish risks. Casual falls on lead, standing in the firing line of dangerous hanging ice, soloing shit they probably shouldnt even be leading? This not only places themselves in serious danger, but it also effects all the other climbers around them as was mentioned before.

The comment was made that he was "green" to climbing. How is the justification made to solo Standard as a "green" climber? I know that doesnt clearly explain what his level of ability or experience is, but it should be clear that if someone describes you as "green" , you shouldnt be soloing ice, PERIOD.

Because he couldnt find a partner? What happened to adapting your plans to the day and the circumstances so you leave the mountains to play another day?

Don't fret about the guy that goes bouncing by. If he takes you out, that's another story. You choose to help him out after his fuckup? That's your choice. Casting judgement after the fact? Way "bogus".

Come on. Are you really that cavalier? I guess i havent reached hardman status where i could watch a fellow climber and member of a community i care deeply about "go bouncing by" without letting it effect me and cause me to reflect more about why it happened.

My post was not intended to pass judgement on this guy. It was intented to open a discussion about why and how we are making decisions like this one. If this climber had intended or felt that he was capable of soloing standard and it was within his limits, why all the fishing for belays and comments about "guiding" me up the mountain. In what decision making process does a "green" climber just say screw it, i will just solo this?

I am glad someone brought up Steve House. Is the climbing community so innundated with the 1% doing superman level stuff that it is making the 99% think they are capable of things outside of their reach? Do we need better education about how to assess and make risk decisions? I am not saying that we all dont have different acceptable levels of risk, but i would argue that alot of folks dont know how to honestly and accurately define their own skill level. If you cant do that, then how can you make good decisions in the mountains?

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2013, 08:06:19 AM »

Quote
In climbing, what's the difference between bold and bad judgement?  If you make it down alive, you were bold.

+1 That one goes into the Climber's Quotes...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 08:07:55 AM by Admin Al »
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Al Hospers
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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2013, 08:14:59 AM »

Quote
I am glad someone brought up Steve House. Is the climbing community so innundated with the 1% doing superman level stuff that it is making the 99% think they are capable of things outside of their reach? Do we need better education about how to assess and make risk decisions? I am not saying that we all dont have different acceptable levels of risk, but i would argue that alot of folks dont know how to honestly and accurately define their own skill level. If you cant do that, then how can you make good decisions in the mountains?

I think that this is a perfectly reasonable topic for discussion. Maybe even warranting it's own topic. That said, you really gotta wonder if it had any impact on this particular climber's decision to solo the route? And if he sketched his way to the top, would he have been emboldened to try something harder? Clearly we aren't going to know the answer to that question, unless the climber decided to talk about it. and I agree with DMAn on this:

Quote
I would love to hear more from the victim’s brother or the victim but I’m not holding my breath... unfortunately to often than not victims are to embarrassed or in denial to share their thought process after an accident like this... but maybe they will?

That's why I find it so interesting, and frankly invaluable, to read AINAM reports where there is an analysis by the person or persons who were directly involved in an incident. It gives me an insight into their decision making progress that we rarely get.
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DLottmann

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2013, 10:04:34 AM »

Quote
In climbing, what's the difference between bold and bad judgement?  If you make it down alive, you were bold.

+1 That one goes into the Climber's Quotes...

I dislike bravado quotes like this. Maybe in the eyes of some if you survived then you were bold, but that's not an indicator of whether or not you made good choices. You simply may have been lucky.

Non-Event Feedback Loop: "The trap here relates to the Non-event Feedback Loop in decision making. When climbing decisions result in no accident, people may believe that they made the best choice. The climber may have been simply "lucky". It may be only a matter of time before acquired habits that seem adequate result in an accident" McCammon 2002 Heuristic Traps in Recreational Accidents
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steve weitzler

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2013, 10:50:00 AM »

This accident has reminded me of a personal Frankenstein experience that happened to me about 20 years ago. It was later in the day and a buddy and myself were roped up to do one last climb (not even sure what one but Chia stands out). My memory is foggy these days. I was ready to climb when a guy comes along and says he is going to solo the route as it is an easy route he had done multiple times and asks if he can climb through. I had literally just placed my axes on the first move off the deck. We politely declined to let him climb through. It didn't take us long to do the route. When were at the top and had finished climbing we heard a faint, quivering voice below us asking if we would be so kind as to drop a rope to Mr. Solo climber. My partner immediatly said no as it is an easy route and besides Mr. Solo had done the route before and it being late in the day we were in a hurry to satiate our "thirst." Of course me being the nice, understanding guy that I am explained to my partner that if this guy decks it will take us a lot longer to get to the "satiating thirst place" (providing we scraped him up and carried him out) than if we dropped him a rope. Better judgement won out and I threw him a rope and put him on belay whereupon he immediatly fell. I am not sure if this story has any relevance but I guess I bring it up because the decisions we make as and while climbing have consequences and it often makes sense to weigh our decisions carefully as they affect not only ourselves but others.
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kenreville

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2013, 10:53:27 AM »

Is it fair to start the discussion regarding decision making and why this climber decided to solo this route. With all due respect to both the victim and his brother who has joined this thread, this needs to be addressed. Ice climbing is becoming much more popular and it feels like we keep seeing more and more inexperienced climbers taking really foolish risks. Casual falls on lead, standing in the firing line of dangerous hanging ice, soloing shit they probably shouldnt even be leading? This not only places themselves in serious danger, but it also effects all the other climbers around them as was mentioned before.

The comment was made that he was "green" to climbing. How is the justification made to solo Standard as a "green" climber? I know that doesnt clearly explain what his level of ability or experience is, but it should be clear that if someone describes you as "green" , you shouldnt be soloing ice, PERIOD.

Because he couldnt find a partner? What happened to adapting your plans to the day and the circumstances so you leave the mountains to play another day?

Don't fret about the guy that goes bouncing by. If he takes you out, that's another story. You choose to help him out after his fuckup? That's your choice. Casting judgement after the fact? Way "bogus".

Come on. Are you really that cavalier? I guess i havent reached hardman status where i could watch a fellow climber and member of a community i care deeply about "go bouncing by" without letting it effect me and cause me to reflect more about why it happened.

My post was not intended to pass judgement on this guy. It was intented to open a discussion about why and how we are making decisions like this one. If this climber had intended or felt that he was capable of soloing standard and it was within his limits, why all the fishing for belays and comments about "guiding" me up the mountain. In what decision making process does a "green" climber just say screw it, i will just solo this?

I am glad someone brought up Steve House. Is the climbing community so innundated with the 1% doing superman level stuff that it is making the 99% think they are capable of things outside of their reach? Do we need better education about how to assess and make risk decisions? I am not saying that we all dont have different acceptable levels of risk, but i would argue that alot of folks dont know how to honestly and accurately define their own skill level. If you cant do that, then how can you make good decisions in the mountains?

It is not up to ANYone else to "make good decisions" other than the individual. Especially solo. So a "green" climber is asking for a belay, can't find one, and goes solo. What are "we" gonna do about it? Absolutely effin' nothing. It's HIS choice. Years ago I did alot of soloing. There were a few times when things got a bit scary. In each case I got it together and pulled the move. To this day many of my most memorable climbs. The only choice you have is to help or not to help if he skates off. That's my point.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 10:55:35 AM by kenreville »
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JBrochu

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2013, 12:20:50 PM »

Quote
In climbing, what's the difference between bold and bad judgement?  If you make it down alive, you were bold.


I dislike bravado quotes like this. Maybe in the eyes of some if you survived then you were bold, but that's not an indicator of whether or not you made good choices. You simply may have been lucky.



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MT

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2013, 12:45:16 PM »



It is not up to ANYone else to "make good decisions" other than the individual. Especially solo. So a "green" climber is asking for a belay, can't find one, and goes solo. What are "we" gonna do about it? Absolutely effin' nothing. It's HIS choice. Years ago I did alot of soloing. There were a few times when things got a bit scary. In each case I got it together and pulled the move. To this day many of my most memorable climbs. The only choice you have is to help or not to help if he skates off. That's my point.
[/quote]

I'd agree, but with a caveat.

It does matter what choices our fellow climbers make and, hence, these discussions, however disjointed, are constructive. (Maybe a discussion like this will stop the next "green" climber from pitching off Standard?) Folks rag-dolling down ice/rock climbs may make someone somewhere start asking whether folks should be allowed to climb here or there (State Law Maker; Parks Official; etc).

As a community, we probably need to come to grips with the fact that climbers' decisions shape the perception of our community by the broader public and, in turn, the constraints on our activity (eg, access, use restrictions). So if you amble upon an accident waiting to happen, probably a good idea to diplomatically let the folks involved know that things may not end up well. Thereafter, it's probably best to be as constructive as possible in getting the facts straight about what happened so that events don't repeat themselves. In this spirit, hopefully the involved party/brother will offer up their side and we will reserve/temper our judgements by the knowledge that we've all made bad decisions at one time or another and come out the other side....with a bit of luck, of course.

Mike

DISCLAIMER: This comment is in NO way meant to point a finger at anyone that came across this dude (Jim, Dave, Bill) that day since it's impossible sometimes to see an accident before it happens.
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grizzhiker2114

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2013, 01:02:39 PM »

Hey Everyone.

I was the EMT that was assisting in the rescue along side the guide from Mountain Rescue Service.

Just wanted to inform everyone that I was talking with the local fire dept up there.  Along with the litter that is hanging at the house they will also be putting a bag of med supplies up there.  BVM, OPAs, cervical collar, etc.  Hope that helps just in case there is another accident in the future.

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lucky luke

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2013, 01:21:33 PM »

My post was not intended to pass judgement on this guy. It was intented to open a discussion about why and how we are making decisions like this one. If this climber had intended or felt that he was capable of soloing standard and it was within his limits, why all the fishing for belays and comments about "guiding" me up the mountain. In what decision making process does a "green" climber just say screw it, i will just solo this?

I am glad someone brought up Steve House. Is the climbing community so innundated with the 1% doing superman level stuff that it is making the 99% think they are capable of things outside of their reach? Do we need better education about how to assess and make risk decisions?

Oh! Oh!
Poor judgment
Safety... better education...

Look like I have a little bit of competition here.

If you go to the garage to test your car and the mecano said that he his good... you will trust your car and you can have an accident: poor judgment of the mecano of you?

If you told to a climber that beginer is grade four, that the cliff have step in it, that you must go for it, climb hard...etc, you will trust your teacher and you can have an accident: poor judgment or is it in a way you promote climbing?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 01:29:32 PM by lucky luke »
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ELM

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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2013, 04:32:27 PM »

Youch!! We gotten nasty. >:(
I really think Steves actions are with one's to follow.
I barely solo getting out of bed but that's me. If you have a fellow climber who needs a hand you give it. If they are doing stupid stuff you point it out.
Give us all bit of a break and help each other out. The media does enought to get climbing accident wrong; we don't need to help create them. :)
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Re: Accident on Standard Route on Saturday
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2013, 05:10:36 PM »

Give us all bit of a break and help each other out. The media does enought to get climbing accident wrong; we don't need to help create them. :)

+1


the "quote machine is fine BTW...
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