Author Topic: Acceptable risk and soloing  (Read 2595 times)

Offline sneoh

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2013, 09:45:21 PM »
To say "having a kid means soloing is out" is narrow-minded and ignorant.  That stance just shows your lack of an ability to deal with risk and teach about consequences.  If its your personal choice for that stance rather than a blanket statement, that's very different (I hope my explanation sufficiently gets across the point I'm trying to make).
For me, it is personal.  I can't speak for anyone else.  Not weighing all the facts 100% objectively perhaps but hardly narrow-minded.  I am "400%" sure of that.  As for "lack of ability to deal with risk", let's not fool ourselves that this can be a judgement stemming from an objective assessment.  Some people take "greater risk" in certain facets of their lives and lower in others.  What is low or moderate risk to me might be great risk to you and vice versa. 

BTW, it is 'multifaceted" if you are still wondering.

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Offline strandman

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2013, 10:05:39 PM »
I almost think if you question soloing, you shouldn't.. for whatever reason. one of my friends who died rappelling NEVER soloed, ever, but when the anchor pulls    , you die

Offline hobbsj

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2013, 10:39:21 PM »
Sneoh, I suck at spelling even with spell-check :-)  I agree with you and kenreville.  My statement was aimed more towards the individuals who say "a family means activity x is unacceptable" as a blanket statement. Chalk it up to my inability to communicate effectively when typing.  Your post elaborated on what I was trying to say.  As an example,  I'll solo some stuff after checking it out and rush a position with covering fire, but rarely go more than 5mph over the speed limit.

Offline lucky luke

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2013, 11:59:05 PM »
I can be a little bit nasty and talk about the definition of risk, but I really don't know what to say. I will just listen and learn

 

Offline sneoh

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2013, 12:17:47 AM »
It is all cool, Hobbsj.  NP.  Please take good care of yourself if you deploy.  We hope you make it home safely.

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline lucky luke

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2013, 10:37:29 PM »
Hmmmm, another thread has pulled me into this one...arghh...ok I probably shouldn’t but here I go, to broaden the discussion on what is “acceptable” risk.

First, a definition: risk = (the probability of occurrence) times (the gravity of the consequence).

Such an interesting subject. Can not seat back in front of my computer, reading, without letting my hands going on the keyboard.

taking a risk and doing an extreme sport is different for me. (Extreme sports (also called action sports, aggro sports, and adventure sports) is a popular term for certain activities perceived as having a high level of inherent danger.). I agree that solo is more extreme than rope up. climbing is more extreme than swimming. So, maybe we will agree that the decision to climb or to swim is not a decision where the notion of risk must be apply.

The definition of risk is: A situation involving exposure to danger. Can we associate danger with gravity of the consequence? For me there is two kind of danger, objective and subjective. objective is gravity, falling rock, broken hole... and subjective is walking in the middle of an avalanche slab, two rope unevean in a rap, poor anchor, etc. so one occur in the mountain without the presence of human and the other is made by the human. I understand that we can not know the gravity of the consequence when we decide to take a risk, but we also have to evaluate if the risk of a fall worth it. and the consequences is for me the results of taking a risk not a part of the equation.

So, I am a little bit confuse here.       

Offline Admin Al

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2013, 11:37:09 PM »
Please take good care of yourself if you deploy.  We hope you make it home safely.

+2
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Offline steve weitzler

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2013, 08:40:31 AM »
Maybe it's just me (to each their own) but when my kids were born I got more enjoyment watching their soccer games, dance recitals, etc. than I ever got out of climbing. Taking them hiking, climbing and biking seemed more enjoyable than hanging out with a bunch of climbing friends flexing and spraying. Now that they are older and gone I am free to do resume whatever I chose.

Offline David_G48

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2013, 08:47:48 AM »
Maybe it's just me (to each their own) but when my kids were born I got more enjoyment watching their soccer games, dance recitals, etc. than I ever got out of climbing. Taking them hiking, climbing and biking seemed more enjoyable than hanging out with a bunch of climbing friends flexing and spraying. Now that they are older and gone I am free to do resume whatever I chose.

                         +1

Offline strandman

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2013, 09:23:09 AM »
Maybe it's just me (to each their own) but when my kids were born I got more enjoyment watching their soccer games, dance recitals,  :) :)

your right Steve... it's you   :) :)  Just happy you lived to see today

Offline smartpig

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2013, 10:18:21 AM »
My family has taken un-roped climbing off the table for me. I get my thrills in other ways these days.

Yeah, Ken!  Swarmy rip tides, fog, killer sharks, and gnarly bass hooked on your fly rod, gin and tonics, and smoke for you mate!  Not to mention the four women in your life.


My greatest adventure ever was with you Ken.  Attempting the first winter ascent of of Annapurna 1 via the the yet un-climbed West Rib to Roc Nor, with hard left hand turn to traverse the long mile of the East Ridge (from 24,000') to the summit at just over 26,000'.  We made the best decision of our lives retreating from our high point of 23,000'.  I thought it bad judgement that you and Pemba chose to wait-and-see, at our camp I, on the glacier below the awesome South Face (prone to major avalanche wipe out).  The retreat in white out conditions back to base camp was epic- thankful of placing rock cairn navigation markers and dialing in an exit strategy in case of such an event.  The competing Japanese, climbing the direct Bonington route, were able to get the summit at a big price.  The two summiteers are still up there 26 years later.

[By the way: sorry about knocking your pack off the ledge at 20,000'!  Glad it didn't go all the way and we were able to retrieve it.  My bad, dude, but clip the sucker off no matter what!] 

Given the historical record of Himalayan Alpinism I knew it was statistically the highest risk game I could play as a climber.  We were unmarried and without children then, Ken.  I made sure that all my loved ones knew upfront the risks.  It is never with 100% blessing from your loved ones.  The decision to willfully place my self in the possible path of the grim reaper is a selfish act.  Once dead, the living must deal with the psychological and administrative debris. No amount of years of experience, the using of good judgement, and well honed skills can protect you when circumstances (either anticipated or not), nature (either weather, rock/ice fall), your response/exposure to high altitude (the killa edemas), and monumental/"momentary lapse of reasoning" [Pink Floyd] suddenly throws your life into peril.

It is exactly these elements of risk that makes climbing so alluring and compelling.  Climbing is viscerally engaging both mentally and physically.  The beauty of climbing is you can choose how you want to play the game- you can choose your exposure to risk.  It does not mean you might end up dead! Gravity is gravity no matter the grade or level of objective hazards.  A sharp mind does not mean you can not make that one last mistake.  No. amount of reading and knowing the historical record can save you.  You will never be immune to death!

....But I will tell you, all the elements and risk of climbing, has shaped my  life in incredibly rewarding and enriching ways.  The physical, psychological, and philosophical benefits are well worth all the risk I have exposed myself to.  It informs and defines my life beyond climbing. Climbing as a metaphor has always fascinated me.  Most defiantly I have way dialed back my exposure to risk since having a son and becoming older and wiser.  Short of dying, I have pushed out and tested the realms of risk, as a climber, sufficiantly enough to know its extremities. I have gone, I have seen, I have felt its grip.  It has given me great adventures and lifelong bonds of friendship.  I no long feel a need to pursue high risk.  I can take my experience of risk and apply it in non life threatening ways--such as the pursuit of financial security!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 02:24:17 PM by smartpig »
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Offline strandman

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2013, 10:42:19 AM »
Well put jamie..... ya makes your decisions and ya takes your chances.

i remember hanging with Tuts in JT, talking about him  going to Annapurna  4 back in the 80's.. 83? He seemd so calm about it.. scared me talking about it !

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2013, 10:47:31 AM »
My family has taken un-roped climbing off the table for me. I get my thrills in other ways these days.

Yeah, Ken!  Swarmy rip tides, fog, killer sharks, and gnarly bass hooked on your fly rod, gin and tonics, and smoke for you mate!  Not to mention the four women in your life.


My greatest adventure ever was with you Ken.  Attempting the first winter ascent of of Annapurna 1 via the the yet un-climbed West Rib to Roc Nor, with hard left hand turn to traverse the long mile of the East Ridge (from 24,000') to the summit at just over 26,000'.  We made the best decision of our lives retreating from our high point of 23,000'.  I thought it bad judgement that you and Pemba chose to wait-and-see, at our camp I, on the glacier below the awesome South Face (prone to major avalanche wipe out).  The retreat in white out conditions back to base camp was epic- thankful of placing rock cairn navigation markers and dialing in an exit strategy in case of such an event.  The competing Japanese, climbing the direct Bonington route, were able to get the summit at a big price.  The two summiteers are still up there 26 years later.

[By the way: sorry about knocking your pack off the ledge at 20,000'!  Glad it didn't go all the way and we were able to retrieve it.  My bad, dude, but clip the sucker off no matter what!] 

Given the historical record of Himalayan Alpinism I knew it was statistically the highest risk game I could play as a climber.  We were unmarried and without children then, Ken.  I made sure that all my loved ones knew upfront the risks.  It is never with 100% blessing from your loved ones.  The decision to willfully place my self in the possible path of the grim reaper is a selfish act.  Once dead, the living must deal with the psychological and administrative debris. No amount of years of experience, the using of good judgement, and well honed skills can protect you when circumstances (either anticipated or not), nature (either weather, rock/ice fall), your response/exposure to high altitude (the killa edemas), and monumental/"momentary lapse of reasoning" [Pink Floyd] suddenly throws your life into peril.

It is exactly these elements of risk that makes climbing so alluring and compelling.  Climbing is viscerally engaging both mentally and physically.  The beauty of climbing is you can choose how you want to play the game- you can choose your exposure to risk.  It does not mean you might end up dead! Gravity is gravity no matter the grade or level of objective hazards.  A sharp mind does not mean you can not make that one last mistake.  No. amount of reading and knowing the historical record can save you.  You will never be immune to death!

....But I will tell you, all the elements and risk of climbing, has shaped my  life in incredibly rewarding and enriching ways.  The physical, psychological, and philosophical benefits are well worth all the risk I have exposed myself to.  It informs and defines my life beyond climbing. Climbing as a metaphor has always fascinated me.  Most defiantly I have way dialed back my exposure to risk since having a son and becoming older and wiser.  Short of dying, I have pushed out and tested the realms of risk, as a climber, sufficiantly enough to know its extremities. I have gone, I have seen, I have felt its grip.  It has given me great adventures and lifelong bonds of friendship.  I no long feel a need to pursue high risk.  I can take my experience of risk and apply it in non life threatening ways--such as the pursuit of financial security!
I really enjoy reading your posts Jamie.  Post more often will ya.  You are one inspiring cat.

Offline ridgerunner

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2013, 02:31:52 PM »
Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts on the matter. And for the one of you who doubts the definition of risk, I will let MIT explain the concept:
http://msl1.mit.edu/ESD10/block4/4.2b_-_Risk_Assessment.pdf


Offline steve weitzler

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Re: Acceptable risk and soloing
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2013, 02:41:33 PM »
Very well put Jamie. I couldn't agree with you more.