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[hobbsj]

Champ, maybe I'm misunderstanding your post yet again:

 "it is means that people can't choose what they want to do, but to climb hard like you. Doing 5.6 could have more value to someone than trying to be like an hero."

people can climb what they want on any route.  If they sit there and take an easy variation on a .10, who cares?  I agree that some 5.6 climbing has a lot of value and can just be plain fun.  But what does that have to do with what others choose to climb?

"You just bullshit every thing and now the route modern time is just one move to the right for selfish people who want to thing that they are good."

Who cares what they climb?  It doesn't endanger you or hurt the rock (unless there are bolting issues going on).  Maybe their life sucks and the ego-boost gives them the one bit of happiness for the week.  It doesn't do anything to you.

"Do you think that you don't ever listen to a modern definition of trad? and din't bring any argument to show that a new definition is not good?"

I got an argument for the old defintion-- it ain't broke so don't fix it!  You haven't provided a good argument for a new definition.  You just get mad when people don't agree and try to sell us an idea that we don't need or want like a new long-distance phone plan (hence my telemarketer comment earlier). Again, who cares about the definition?  You plug gear on a route, you clip bolts, or both.  You have the skill-set to do those tasks. or you don't.  Sure someone may not like sport style climbing or trad with all its shiny gear.  But adding or taking away words to the definition will do nothing. I have yet to meet a climber who says "I will/won't do awesome classic route xyz because technically it does/doesn't fit in to the definition of trad climbing since it is lacking such and such."  When I meet that guy I'll give him a #5 to the nuts. 

[JakeDatc]

In the post above, Jake datc was proud to did modern time, just to say that he did it. he didn't ask himself what was the fun of that route. The only fun move is the 5.8 and it is not the crux. he didn't climb to do the fun move, as he avoid it, but to say that he did it.     

Say what??    The whole route is fun.  I did it because it is a great route, not just to say that I did it.   Personally i think getting up to the traverse on P2 is the crux for me.. roofs with giant jugs are easy.. a bit of techy face climbing with less than great gear is harder. 

what did i avoid??    how do you know what way i went from a still photo?   dumbass.   Want me to campus it for you next time? 

"P2: 5.8+ PG   Walk left 20ft.  climb short right facing corner, step right at overhang and then climb to top of huge left facing flake.  Move up to the notch in the roof, escape up right past more overhangs and a notch (crux) to a small stance at the steep white face.  traverse right 15ft and belay  then to top."  - dick williams       (i skip the lower belay and just go straight to the tree to belay)

I climbed it the first time (with the photos) with a 60yr old trad climber who's been all over the country and found no fault with what I did.

"where I hug the three, unfortunately, because I had hard time..."

you hung on Modern times?   HAHAHAHHAAHAAA  weak ass poser.   "Mr trad climber"  can't pull a jug haul roof..  wow..   stick to head down ass out slab climbing then. 

here's me waving at ya champ..

[kenreville]

In the post above, Jake datc was proud to did modern time, just to say that he did it. he didn't ask himself what was the fun of that route. The only fun move is the 5.8 and it is not the crux. he didn't climb to do the fun move, as he avoid it, but to say that he did it.     

Say what??    The whole route is fun.  I did it because it is a great route, not just to say that I did it.   Personally i think getting up to the traverse on P2 is the crux for me.. roofs with giant jugs are easy.. a bit of techy face climbing with less than great gear is harder. 

what did i avoid??    how do you know what way i went from a still photo?   dumbass.   Want me to campus it for you next time? 

"P2: 5.8+ PG   Walk left 20ft.  climb short right facing corner, step right at overhang and then climb to top of huge left facing flake.  Move up to the notch in the roof, escape up right past more overhangs and a notch (crux) to a small stance at the steep white face.  traverse right 15ft and belay  then to top."  - dick williams       (i skip the lower belay and just go straight to the tree to belay)

I climbed it the first time (with the photos) with a 60yr old trad climber who's been all over the country and found no fault with what I did.

"where I hug the three, unfortunately, because I had hard time..."

you hung on Modern times?   HAHAHAHHAAHAAA  weak ass poser.   "Mr trad climber"  can't pull a jug haul roof..  wow..   stick to head down ass out slab climbing then. 

here's me waving at ya champ..

Wow Champ. Your ass is on fire right now huh? Burnt crisp.
You really should stop building straw men for the reasons people climb- it's whatever the hell they feel like climbing. BTW- looks to me that Jake is having a buttload of fun.

And always remember, as good and as "ethical" as you might feel that you are, there's ALWAYS someone who outshines you. That goes for pretty much most of us.

[lucky luke]

Here we have a 90% sport climber onsighting 5.8+  which some "trad" climbers have pathetically call 10c.

"P2: 5.8+ PG   Walk left 20ft.  climb short right facing corner, step right at overhang and then climb to top of huge left facing flake.  Move up to the notch in the roof, escape up right past more overhangs and a notch (crux) to a small stance at the steep white face.  traverse right 15ft and belay  then to top."

Move up a notch in the roof and climb to a diedral in the right of the roof is different for me.  So, the proof that you didn't do the 5.8+. To climb the overhang, you have to do a hook with your feet. Route finding is not really a problem in that route, but I know that if you said that a variation is 5.10c and the route is 5.8, all sport climber will do the 5.10c and less accident will happen. You probably don't read the topo before.

As you climbed the route long time before, the finger is not for me. Probably that you was proud of doing it and that you considered that you was stronger than the route. competition or some thing like that. an example of a bad education,nothing more.

it is a way to have fun, never say that sport wasn't fun. It is not for me. I prefer more respectfull partner. It is true that I have many example of that in sport and few in trad. 

 

[lucky luke]

You make a convincing argument Luke. Trad climbing is just much too dangerous, that is why i am striving to become a sport climber. As sole provider for my family i cant take chances anymore.

glad that you think like that. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to discuss a modern definition of trad. If you think that one is much too dangerous than the other, it is because one is different than the other.

Be carefull to climb with sport climber who mixte both styles. They will bring you in dangerous situation and you won't be prepare to save your life. 

[tradmanclimbz]

WTF, Give it a rest dude. you got your arse kicked on that one

[DaveR]

Be carefull to climb with sport climber who mixte both styles. They will bring you in dangerous situation and you won't be prepare to save your life.

LL - This is about the dumbest thing you have ever said!

There are many "sport climbers" who post here that will competently outclimb just about anybody I know on trad or in any alpine situation and that likely includes you! I'm sure this shocks you as you seem to know everything there is to know about climbing.

What does it matter anyways?
Sometimes I climb sport,
Sometimes I trad climb,
Sometimes I even aid climb, (OMG)!!!
I even climb Ice and mixed routes.

What your climbing and the grade DOES NOT f^^^^^g matter!
Test yourself or just go easy!
Be safe and have fun.

[sneoh]

Champ, that is very close to slander.  Thread carefully.
Besides, I am sure mopowers is WELL capable of taking care of himself.

[JakeDatc]

Here we have a 90% sport climber onsighting 5.8+  which some "trad" climbers have pathetically call 10c.

"P2: 5.8+ PG   Walk left 20ft.  climb short right facing corner, step right at overhang and then climb to top of huge left facing flake.  Move up to the notch in the roof, escape up right past more overhangs and a notch (crux) to a small stance at the steep white face.  traverse right 15ft and belay  then to top."

Move up a notch in the roof and climb to a diedral in the right of the roof is different for me.  So, the proof that you didn't do the 5.8+. To climb the overhang, you have to do a hook with your feet. Route finding is not really a problem in that route, but I know that if you said that a variation is 5.10c and the route is 5.8, all sport climber will do the 5.10c and less accident will happen. You probably don't read the topo before.

As you climbed the route long time before, the finger is not for me. Probably that you was proud of doing it and that you considered that you was stronger than the route. competition or some thing like that. an example of a bad education,nothing more.

it is a way to have fun, never say that sport wasn't fun. It is not for me. I prefer more respectfull partner. It is true that I have many example of that in sport and few in trad. 

 

ahh dumbass..   i SAID   that one BOOK  calls it 10c.   it is widely known as a pathetic excuse for a guidebook which has many inaccurate grades, descriptions and tells you how to smoke pot.   Stick to babbling about nonsense and don't argue beta with someone who's actually been on the route. 

sounds like you've never been on the route.   the way i went is the 8+,   there is also a .9 left variation that goes to the left of the pine tree.

there is clearly a NOTCH right above the long red sling.. it then goes above my head on JUGS. 

here's a guy in 1976 going the same way...
http://mountainproject.com/images/15/75/107621575_large_96eac6.jpg

Beware of quebecquois douchebags who think they are better than they really are.  I met a dumbass from mtn project who said he led 5.9 and harder sport  and could lead 5.8 trad..  the guy fell top roping Bonnies roof JUGGY 5.8,  got lost on High E 5.6,   and FREAKED out on Shockley's Ceiling 5.6.      but yea i'm the dangerous one. 

you have no respect for anyone.   You are a poser and nothing more.   

[WharfRat]

Fuck yeah Jake, now that's what i am talking about.

Bout time someone put this little bitch in his place!!

Here we have a 90% sport climber onsighting 5.8+  which some "trad" climbers have pathetically call 10c.

"P2: 5.8+ PG   Walk left 20ft.  climb short right facing corner, step right at overhang and then climb to top of huge left facing flake.  Move up to the notch in the roof, escape up right past more overhangs and a notch (crux) to a small stance at the steep white face.  traverse right 15ft and belay  then to top."

Move up a notch in the roof and climb to a diedral in the right of the roof is different for me.  So, the proof that you didn't do the 5.8+. To climb the overhang, you have to do a hook with your feet. Route finding is not really a problem in that route, but I know that if you said that a variation is 5.10c and the route is 5.8, all sport climber will do the 5.10c and less accident will happen. You probably don't read the topo before.

As you climbed the route long time before, the finger is not for me. Probably that you was proud of doing it and that you considered that you was stronger than the route. competition or some thing like that. an example of a bad education,nothing more.

it is a way to have fun, never say that sport wasn't fun. It is not for me. I prefer more respectfull partner. It is true that I have many example of that in sport and few in trad. 

 

ahh dumbass..   i SAID   that one BOOK  calls it 10c.   it is widely known as a pathetic excuse for a guidebook which has many inaccurate grades, descriptions and tells you how to smoke pot.   Stick to babbling about nonsense and don't argue beta with someone who's actually been on the route. 

sounds like you've never been on the route.   the way i went is the 8+,   there is also a .9 left variation that goes to the left of the pine tree.

there is clearly a NOTCH right above the long red sling.. it then goes above my head on JUGS. 

here's a guy in 1976 going the same way...
http://mountainproject.com/images/15/75/107621575_large_96eac6.jpg

Beware of quebecquois douchebags who think they are better than they really are.  I met a dumbass from mtn project who said he led 5.9 and harder sport  and could lead 5.8 trad..  the guy fell top roping Bonnies roof JUGGY 5.8,  got lost on High E 5.6,   and FREAKED out on Shockley's Ceiling 5.6.      but yea i'm the dangerous one. 

you have no respect for anyone.   You are a poser and nothing more.

[lucky luke]

there is also a .9 left variation that goes to the left of the pine tree.

there is clearly a NOTCH right above the long red sling.. it then goes above my head on JUGS. 

"P2: 5.8+ PG   Walk left 20ft.  climb short right facing corner, step right at overhang and then climb to top of huge left facing flake.  Move up to the notch in the roof, escape up right past more overhangs and a notch (crux) to a small stance at the steep white face.  traverse right 15ft and belay  then to top."

There is two notch in the original route. The 5.9 you escape left and up. In the 5.8 variation, you escape right. and in the 5.10c variation you don't climb the roof. Today, thousand of people do the variation that you did and they are very glad of that. I never did the 5.9 variation and thought to scary for me. 

You was not of route, so it is not a problem of route finding. What get you mad? Is it because you said that you was better than trad? Which I agree. In doing that, you clarily said that there is a difference between trad and sport climbing.   

N.B. Jake I never say that you are dangerous. I said that some sport climber, like the quebecois that you describe climbing bonnie roof, who told you to be a strong climber, can be dangerous because sport and trad climber don't have the same basic knowledge when they begin. so we both agree on that point...at least!

[lucky luke]

What does it matter anyways?
Sometimes I climb sport,
Sometimes I trad climb,
Sometimes I even aid climb, (OMG)!!!
I even climb Ice and mixed routes.

What your climbing and the grade DOES NOT f^^^^^g matter!
Test yourself or just go easy!
Be safe and have fun.

It is what I think to. but you clairly made distinction between eacdh ethic. One of my partner is an aid climber. He solo amasing route that I didn't imagine the stress and power. It is amasing to see how he is organised and verify any thing. As he climb trad, he is a little bit slow because he is very carefull on the security, more than me. I have to be patient because I have to respect his ethic.

It is common to see someone like jake dack doing the same comment as I do for my aid partner. except that I don't have the impression that he respect the ethic, old bottom up style, that many climber develop in the past year. they don't make a distinction about the new sport climbing generation and the established one. They fight it.

We didn't even have a modern definition of trad climbing.

[xcrag_corex]

Hey guys. There is no need to fight. It's very simple..... http://i.imgur.com/YUo8vcK.png

[DaveR]

What does it matter anyways?
Sometimes I climb sport,
Sometimes I trad climb,
Sometimes I even aid climb, (OMG)!!!
I even climb Ice and mixed routes.

What your climbing and the grade DOES NOT f^^^^^g matter!
Test yourself or just go easy!
Be safe and have fun.

It is what I think to. but you clairly made distinction between eacdh ethic.

I didn't talk about any kind of ethics you dumbass, just different kinds of climbing!! IT'S ALL JUST CLIMBING. Your so stuck on your stupid ethics bullshit you didn't even get my point. And lastly, you do not think like me or anyone else I know.

PS. I will be sport climbing this wekend so I guess I had better not attempt anymore multipitch trad in the future. I might get hurt!

[JakeDatc]

Pretty sure the way I went and 98% of the people go  is the original 5.8+ version.    there is no 10c version.  there is a 10a version that hand traverses right i guess.   

this guidebook called it 10c because he is a weak roof climber (many roofs got upgraded in his book including Shockleys to a 5.8-9? )  http://www.amazon.com/Gunks-Climbers-Shawangunks-Zach-Orenczak/dp/0974653292/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366909341&sr=1-4&keywords=gunks+guide

You said a lot of shit talking and now say that i did it right?
vvvv

"Move up a notch in the roof and climb to a diedral in the right of the roof is different for me.  So, the proof that you didn't do the 5.8+. To climb the overhang, you have to do a hook with your feet. Route finding is not really a problem in that route, but I know that if you said that a variation is 5.10c and the route is 5.8, all sport climber will do the 5.10c and less accident will happen. You probably don't read the topo before.

As you climbed the route long time before, the finger is not for me. Probably that you was proud of doing it and that you considered that you was stronger than the route. competition or some thing like that. an example of a bad education,nothing more. "

Also,  I have led both pitches twice, ground up, no falls (ever on that route) placing my own gear.   so yea my ethics are totally screwed up. I also don't use any heel hooks on that route.  knee bar yes, feet cutting yes.  heel hook.. no, it's unnecessary. 

I climb trad at the gunks below my sport warm up level to have fun and change things up.  I also have fun following people there who are stronger on gear than I am.