modern definition of trad

[JakeDatc]

Here we have a 90% sport climber onsighting 5.8+  which some "trad" climbers have pathetically call 10c.  I wonder how many "trad" climbers miss the bomber knee bar,  I wonder how many let their feet cut because it's easier to swing your feet up to the next hold, I wonder how many of them piss their pants on the exit moves because they don't know how to climb while they are pumped out and don't know how to rest on an overhang. 

So, I open a new route at the gunks. I would call it modern time II. I climb a notch and past the tree to an other notch to a belay thirty feet above the tree. And when my second decide to avoid the roof, they did the 5.10c variation that you did. Wow, I never thought that I am so good.

any way, great photo, it remember me a lot of good feeling.

The old far who show me where the route goes, as we were waiting for the roof of HE,  was a liar

draw in a line the way that you went.   use one of the other photos that show a wider view

I didn't avoid any roof.. i'm practically horizontal there.  you can't not do a roof and still get to the top of the route. 

again, there is no 10c  variation.   pay attention. 

this is hilarious..  there are hundreds of routes at the gunks with tricky route finding...  Modern Times is NOT one of them lol  if he got lost on MT then  HE  needs to learn how to read a topo..

[lucky luke]

Hi jake. Don't take it badly. some guy think that they are safe and they aren't (not your case as it is clear that you well protect the route. Take your rack and follow the red line on the picture below. You will enjoy your climb.
 
have fun

[sneoh]

The higher traverse looks harder and not the most obvious line thru the hangs.  Why would you want to do it?

[JakeDatc]

That's what i think..  it doesn't sound like any of the variations..  champy was just off route and made it hard on himself.    Exit Stage Left  doesnt traverse at all.. it goes straight up from the belay.

[kenreville]

Hi jake. Don't take it badly. some guy think that they are safe and they aren't (not your case as it is clear that you well protect the route. Take your rack and follow the red line on the picture below. You will enjoy your climb.
 
have fun

Still don't understand what your point of contention is Champ. 1) There is no "modern definition of trad". It's the same as it always was. At least for the last 30 years. 2) It is painfully obvious from the pix provided, that the route naturally goes where JD went. The variation you redlined is just that: a variation. 3) Like everything else in life, there are a multitude of reasons why people do what they do. As long as their actions don't infringe on others, it's all good. As far as climbing goes, is it really possible for someone to be "offended" by a line of bolts up a sheer cliff? I think not. And if you know someone who is offended, send 'em my way. I'll slap some sense into them. You can thank me later. 4) It's too bad you can't get qualudes anymore. I'd send you a couple of dozen just to get you to take a breath and r e l a x. Life's to short mah friend.

[lucky luke]

from Vulgarian 1970

Well it is the way old local did it before. and if you look at pitch 4, it is the high traverse to the big pine (you did the low traverse and after that surmount the overhang...it is the contrary). When you do it in one pitch from the terasse ledge to the top, you have to make the move close to the big pine (before, they do the belay there). That move is the crux. First time, I precipitate the move and was trap in the crux without rest. Second time, I was helping an other team that try the route and whondecide to follow the same path as you did. I wasn't enought concentrate in the high traverse and made a mistake too.

The overhang is only 5.8+...but what a feeling. When you understand the move, or some one hate you and gave you the beta, it is so easy. Comitment is very intense and good protection...under the roof....Scary. Sugest to train in some other overhang before doing this gem. 

[JakeDatc]

from Vulgarian 1970

Well it is the way old local did it before. and if you look at pitch 4, it is the high traverse to the big pine (you did the low traverse). when you do it in one pitch from the terasse ledge to the top, you have to make the move close to the big pine (before, they do the belay there). That move is the crux. First time, I precipitate the move and was trap in the crux without rest. Second time, I was helping an other team that try the route and decide to follow the same path as you did. I wasn't enought concentrate and made a mistake too.

The overhang is only 5.8+...but what a feeling. When you understand the move, or some one hate you and gave you the beta, it is so easy. Comitment is very intense and good protection...under the roof....Scary. Sugest to train in some other overhang before doing this gem. 

The bent pine is not the "big pine"   look on page 440 of your Grey Dick gunks guide  and look at letter E  you will see after the black line goes right there is a tree there.  that is no longer on the cliff.   you will see on page 273 that it is no longer there.   

no one in their right mind would stop at the bent tree.. that is not 40'  from the top of the big flake  that you climb up off the GT ledge.    P3 is the low traverse then through where i went and up to a pine tree that fell off. 

i'm sorry you are too dull to find the correct way but that is the route. you can find hundreds of photos of people doing it exactly that way and  ZERO doing it the way you claim you did. 

I didn't find the route scary at all.. I found it to be a jughaul with piss easy protection. 

[lucky luke]

Still don't understand what your point of contention

It is because your intervention is mostly of sport climbing style: lower the stress so you can climb harder. One way you do it is by using bolt. Many sport climber place bolt to reduce the distance of a fall. In modern time, if there was a bolt on the leap of the overhang, every body will find it fun and will take that variation.

but the climb don't look easy and the difficulty is to climb under stress. trad climber have to master there technique of safety to do the same thing that you do with bolt. That logistic is fun. The learning training is boring a little. It is like playing chess as you use all your body strenght. The game is not to compete, even if we compete, but to understand new moves in wonderfull places where we didn't go before or try it again because of it beauty or chalenge.

We are less good climber than you, but in a stressfull situation our level of comitment can be higher than yours and still be safe. that is a good point to say in a modern definition of trad.

The problem is that you always coming back with your sport ethic and didn't try to understand all the beauty of our ethic...and all the beauty to climb modern time by doing the higher traverse instead of the easy variation of modern time (sneoh said that my variation look harder; it is not obvious, I agree, it is wonderfull, chalenging and sane). 

[lucky luke]

I didn't find the route scary at all.. I found it to be a jughaul with piss easy protection.

If you miss the scared shitless traverse, it is because...

(sorry All, I wrote too much in a same night)

[sneoh]

I am wondering how many people are wondering this morning why you are questioning the concept of using pro "to lower the stress so you can climb harder".  Isn't that the idea of placing pro in the first place, trad or sport?  Isn't that why most climbers throttle back the grade they lead at when the pro gets worse/fewer?  Are you implying that (assuming) your limit is 5.10+ with G protection, your limit with R protection is also 5.10+, just because you are the 'right' kind of trad climber? 

[JakeDatc]

no, you think you are somehow better than everyone else and you are not.   you did the route incorrectly and cannot read a guidebook that is clear.   your "definition"  sounds like delusional babble from a mental ward off their meds..

i've been told by 3 experienced gunks locals, including a guide that your higher version is not a regular variation. 

i'm out.. its hard enough translating BS. even harder poorly written BS.   too bad there isn't a block user button.   

[lucky luke]

i've been told by 3 experienced gunks locals, including a guide that your higher version is not a regular variation. 

I don't say regular, I said the 5.8 trad version. At least a guide admit that it is a variation

[lucky luke]

I am wondering how many people are wondering this morning why you are questioning the concept of using pro "to lower the stress so you can climb harder".  Isn't that the idea of placing pro in the first place, trad or sport?  Isn't that why most climbers throttle back the grade they lead at when the pro gets worse/fewer?  Are you implying that (assuming) your limit is 5.10+ with G protection, your limit with R protection is also 5.10+, just because you are the 'right' kind of trad climber?

great question. the use of comparative right, better than every one else, stronger...are a little bit  unpleasant. Maybe if you answer your question without those competitive word...modern definition every body will be agree with a modern definition of trad climbing.

In trad, we place protection to lower the injury in a fall. In a fall, we train to climb half a degree lower in lead than in top rope. So, if we climb a 5.9 and fall in a section of 5.8+ we are still safe. In sport you train to climb harder. Under stress, the hand are moist and your grip is not as good. You have to lower the stress. that means thinking that your move is well protect and your life is not threatening. Climbing harder and harder move can be very fun...as much fun as be able to master a easier move perfectly so we can do it under stress.

[sneoh]

So, if we climb a 5.9 and fall in a section of 5.8+ we are still safe.

Keep believing this and one day you might just wonder why you busted your head open with a fall in the 'easy' section of a climb.


Again, your definition of what constitutes the total mastery of a move only applies to YOU.  Climb with enough people and at enough places (thank you, Strand), and you will realize what is perfect for you may very well be very awkward/inefficient for others.  Your past post about how bad a particular climber was dealing with the lower crux move on Diedre (all based on a SINGLE still photo) is indicative of a lack of open mindedness.  And this tendency of yours pretty much extends to every aspect of climbing.  Wake up!

[kenreville]

I am wondering how many people are wondering this morning why you are questioning the concept of using pro "to lower the stress so you can climb harder".  Isn't that the idea of placing pro in the first place, trad or sport?  Isn't that why most climbers throttle back the grade they lead at when the pro gets worse/fewer?  Are you implying that (assuming) your limit is 5.10+ with G protection, your limit with R protection is also 5.10+, just because you are the 'right' kind of trad climber?

great question. the use of comparative right, better than every one else, stronger...are a little bit  unpleasant. Maybe if you answer your question without those competitive word...modern definition every body will be agree with a modern definition of trad climbing.

In trad, we place protection to lower the injury in a fall. In a fall, we train to climb half a degree lower in lead than in top rope. So, if we climb a 5.9 and fall in a section of 5.8+ we are still safe. In sport you train to climb harder. Under stress, the hand are moist and your grip is not as good. You have to lower the stress. that means thinking that your move is well protect and your life is not threatening. Climbing harder and harder move can be very fun...as much fun as be able to master a easier move perfectly so we can do it under stress.

"In a fall, we train to climb half a degree lower in lead than in top rope." We? You got a mouse in your pocket? That may be what you do, just don't include the rest of us following the same drummer.  And "train"? Train for what?

"So, if we climb a 5.9 and fall in a section of 5.8+ we are still safe." Now that's just plain 'ole stupid. You're implying that because you can make a 5.9 move, that you're also good at gear placements. There is NO correlation between the two.

"Climbing harder and harder move can be very fun...as much fun as be able to master a easier move perfectly so we can do it under stress." Do these thoughts actually run through your head as you climb?

Sorry to say Champ, the more I read your posts, the more I'm beginning to believe you are a climbing hazard. I hope I'm wrong.