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[DLottmann]

So Ken, why the hate? I think Strand has a beef too so I’m up for some respectful educated debate...

First, anyone contributing should at least know their mission statement: http://www.outdoors.org/about/mission.cfm

Second, I admit they had their head in their asses during the golden age of Eastern Climbing, aka, Vulgarians, especially in the Gunks (I get my history from Yankee Rock & Ice)

And, yes, their luxury huts are expensive compared to European huts, but the Whites offer many other options if you wanna avoid them... but....

You can’t deny they educate & introduce shit loads of people to the mountains in a responsible way stressing environmentalism and conservation constantly. Their publications are pretty much the only hiking guidebooks of any regional worth, and they fight polically stronger than any organization I know in the East to protect our wild lands...

So... what’s the issue?

[kenreville]

This is a direct quote of mine taken from another thread:

"Let's see.
A "not for profit" organization who's director commands a $250,000/yr salary.
Operates a 4 star hotel at the top of Crawford Notch- that competes directly with other "for profit" org's (like the Mt.Washington Hotel, a mere 2 miles up the road). The "Highland Center"- chock full of Hummers and BMW's. Can you say hypocrisy?
Last time I actually went into the AMC "Headquarters" in Pinkham Notch was probably 10 years ago- and at that time you could quite literally show up in shorts and flipflops in mid January, and equip yourself for a weekend up at Tuck's. The AMC "not for profit" that competes directly against my friend Rick Wilcox.
There member list, which includes many "pro bono" lawyers, are always willing to take up the Clubs cause.
It's basically a group of people from Joy St. in Boston who have decided to make the National Forest in my backyard, their own personal playground."

Were you around Dman when the AMC was teaming up with the Green Party in an effort to stop cutting of ALL trees in the White Mtns? Not in just the WMNF but in the ENTIRE area? Sorry to say but the forest provides a living for the people that live here. And YES it is sustainable AND renewable.
But that didn't fit the agenda of the AMC. Not in OUR playground.

Do you wanna know what quieted them? It was found that their septic system in Pinkham was found to be grossly inadequate for the number of guests they were staying. So they tucked their tales and whimpered away.
And talk about pollution. Have you ever been on the mountain when the AMC flies in with their helicopter drops? F*** THAT S***.

I've been here long enough to know that the area would be none the worse (significantly better IMO) without the AMC.

Again- BAN THE AMC!

[kenreville]

Also, it's a "club".

Personally, i dislike clubs. Clubs are for people who aren't smart enough to figure things out for themselves.

Wannabees.

Did you ever think that if the AMC wasn't putting wannabees into the Whites, there wouldn't be anywhere near as many incidents?
You know, searches, body drags etc.?

[kenreville]

Oh yeah, and one more thing- talk to anyone that has worked for them. From what I've resoundingly heard, they treat their employees like shit.
 

[DLottmann]

Ok, try to respond point by point here;

Not aware of the director’s salary, wouldn’t mind a link or something but even if it is true, it is a huge organization and I would expect a director with that kind of responsibility to be compensated, at-least as much as your least favorite pro-sports athlete...

RE: Highland Center “Hummers & BMW’s” = total exaggeration BS. I park there at least 20 weeks a year, can’t remember the last Hummer I saw there but I did see an RV take up way to much space last week...

RE: PNVC equipping people for “Tucks”... sorry the folks there are constantly trying to educate the morons showing up and absolutely reduce the amount of incidents and rescues with their advice at the front desk. I have often over heard them talking tourons out of doing something stupid. People will come to Mt. Washington with or without PNVC, but at least some might listen to the staff recommendations regarding gear, current conditions, etc.

RE: “Competing with your friend Rick Wilcox”... really? IMCS has quite a history partnering with AMC to help run their more technical rock & ice programs. As far as I know Rick isn’t really interested in giving nature walks around Lost Pond, so I don’t really see that as competition...

RE: Stopping all logging. No, I was not aware of that, and would side with you that WMNF is a “Land of Many Uses”, and responsible logging is absolutely acceptable. I would not have rallied for the AMC on that argument.

RE: Helicopter drops... many times. Never bothered me.... cool, look a helicopter... there it is... now it’s gone... carrying on with my hike.... I do remember one day hiking on Willey that it was making multiple trips and I guess that could get annoying... one day out of hundreds enjoyed in that area... guess I can handle that...

I have been here long enough to know that no AMC = more uneducated buffoons without the great mentors you grew up with to introduce you to the mountains...

Do you have any comment on their political power rallying people to stop Northern Pass? Or their watershed protection efforts?

[DLottmann]

Oh yeah, and one more thing- talk to anyone that has worked for them. From what I've resoundingly heard, they treat their employees like shit.

I personally know folks that work at both HLC and PNVC, and have met many hut crew over the years. Trail builders, educators, naturalists, hospitality managers, etc... all seem to love their jobs, and many have been their 5+ years...

[kenreville]

Ok, try to respond point by point here;

Not aware of the director’s salary, wouldn’t mind a link or something but even if it is true, it is a huge organization and I would expect a director with that kind of responsibility to be compensated, at-least as much as your least favorite pro-sports athlete... First, I don't have a favorite athlete. And what responsibility? Not buying it.

RE: Highland Center “Hummers & BMW’s” = total exaggeration BS. I park there at least 20 weeks a year, can’t remember the last Hummer I saw there but I did see an RV take up way to much space last week... Regardless of what cars you've seen in the parking lot (BTW, I drove back and forth for 7 years, 5 days a week, past the Highland Center- I know what I saw), that doesn't address the clubs not for profit tax status.

RE: PNVC equipping people for “Tucks”... sorry the folks there are constantly trying to educate the morons showing up and absolutely reduce the amount of incidents and rescues with their advice at the front desk. I have often over heard them talking tourons out of doing something stupid. People will come to Mt. Washington with or without PNVC, but at least some might listen to the staff recommendations regarding gear, current conditions, etc. If the Pinkham Base wasn't there/never at all, would there be more or less incidents? Kinda to late now I suppose as the cat's outta the proverbial bag.

RE: “Competing with your friend Rick Wilcox”... really? IMCS has quite a history partnering with AMC to help run their more technical rock & ice programs. As far as I know Rick isn’t really interested in giving nature walks around Lost Pond, so I don’t really see that as competition...IMCS is the climbing school. I know it is not very profitable for Rick as a whole. As a matter of fact, my close friend Maury McKinney was the first director of the climbing school to actually turn any profit. Can't say where things are today but I don't think it's turned into a profit center. I was speaking of IME. Retail. Seems kinda unfair that the AMC can offer similiar products with tax free status. 

RE: Stopping all logging. No, I was not aware of that, and would side with you that WMNF is a “Land of Many Uses”, and responsible logging is absolutely acceptable. I would not have rallied for the AMC on that argument. And yet they got their horde of pro-bono lawyers to expand "their" playground.

RE: Helicopter drops... many times. Never bothered me.... cool, look a helicopter... there it is... now it’s gone... carrying on with my hike.... I do remember one day hiking on Willey that it was making multiple trips and I guess that could get annoying... one day out of hundreds enjoyed in that area... guess I can handle that... We agree to disagree on this one.

I have been here long enough to know that no AMC = more uneducated buffoons without the great mentors you grew up with to introduce you to the mountains... I never had a mentor. Quite honestly, I read alot, and taught myself how to climb.

Do you have any comment on their political power rallying people to stop Northern Pass? Or their watershed protection efforts?

Can't say I'm for it, but IMO there is no clout that will stop NP. Certainly not the AMC.

[DLottmann]

Well, who knows... but atleast they tried.

My last thought, AMC Volunteers & Paid employees give more time to S&R in the Whites than any one I know, and many pulled out had zero affiliation to “the Club”... just sayin’... lots of good folks in the AMC

[kenreville]

Well, who knows... but atleast they tried.

My last thought, AMC Volunteers & Paid employees give more time to S&R in the Whites than any one I know, and many pulled out had zero affiliation to “the Club”... just sayin’... lots of good folks in the AMC

I know that DMan. There are many solid peeps that have aligned themselves with the AMC. I'm just concerned that they've been "sucked in". I have serious questions when it comes to TODAY’S leaders of the organization. Money and the pursuit of it makes for strange bedfellows. I don't question that the AMC has been a steward in the Whites for many years. However, in recent years (the last 20 IMO), they've become synonymous with the greed and exploitation that is rampant throughout much of the US. By people that just happen to be (with little or less skillsets than most) in a "position" to f*** the rest of us. 

[markvnh]

I've never been a fan of the AMC for various reasons. Just the fact that they don't pay any property tax for the Highland Center or Pinkham Notch - and all the money they make off of those is enough of a reason (plus that Beacon Hill Joy Street address).

What really irks me is they think they own the mountains and have the rights to dictate the use of them. Just this past Sunday I went to Artist's Bluff with my partner thinking that it might be a good place to find dry rock and have an easy day. When coming down from the top we decided we would drop a rope somewhere on Little Monalisa. When we got there it was being gang roped by a beginner AMC class. When I asked the leader if he minded if we dropped a rope on an open section he replied "this is our rock today and no one else can climb here!"

Are you freaking kidding me! Talk about elitist! My blood boiled but instead of getting into any sort of confrontation (other than saying, uh OK) we decided to do something even better - go have a cold beer at the truck.

Neither one of us could believe it - "this is our rock today." Since when did the AMC become stewards of who gets to use the mountains? Their tax exempt status should be revoked!

[DLottmann]

I would have gotten his name and formally complained. Would have been hard not to get confrontational with that kinda BS.

I agree the should pay property tax & boarding tax at HLC and PNVC.

[slink]

I agree with Ken on this. Here is another thing that has been overlooked. Remember when the forest service fees were being discussed? The AMC was up for renewal on the agreement for the huts and the new highland center was being discussed so what did they do? They sent multiple mailings to all of thier members to support the fees. You have to love politics

[DLottmann]

What fees are u referring to Slink?

[slink]

The annual national forest fees that you have to pay every year to park your car.

[DLottmann]

Guess that could be another topic but I find the fee nominal for what I get out of it. Would be nice if they could find funding elsewhere though.