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[markvnh]

DMan - I have to say that I really had to bite my tongue not to get confrontational with the AMC leader. It wouldn't have accomplished anything. He came across as really believing it was his "right" to take ownership of the rock that day.

I thought of calling the AMC in Boston on Monday and decided that was probably as much a waste of time as any attempt at reasoning (or more likely confrontation) would have been on Sunday.

I may be a "newbie" here at NEClimbs but I've been climbing for 30 years now in NH - and can't remember once when I've not been able to "make a crowded crag scenario workable" with other "real" climbers.

[DMan]

I hear you man, there are shit heads working for every organization in the world. If I experienced that I would still call and complain, but I am a “letter writer”, as my wife puts it.

How else will someone who actually has say in the organization make a change if you don’t complain directly to them? I can promise it is less of a waste of time than complaining here...

So they may have hired some 22 year old moron to lead a top-roping program somewhere. Doesn’t discredit the whole organization, but certainly hurts their image. But if no one speaks up (other than complaining on a very small online forum) no corrective action is taken.

I don’t work for them, but I think you should at least write an email or something. I would expect a thoughtful response and follow-up with the “leader” would occur. Maybe I’m wrong, but you should at least try. If that happened to me I would certainly be reaching out to them.

Did the AMC leader really say “No one else can climb here?”

I really find that quote amazing, and applaud you for not dropping his anchors on the spot...

[Jeff]

Most AMC "trip leaders" are volunteers for the AMC local section mountaineering committee and not paid or governed by the Club. I would have "nicely" asked what section they represented, and contacted that section's mountaineering chairperson (listed in the monthly newsletter). The Club at Joy Street is way too far removed from any weekend climbing trip to take any action in a case like this. I ran into the exact same problem once in CT where an AMC group from out of state had 6 top ropes set up. When I asked if I could move one rope to the side (it wasn't currently in use) to lead the pitch, I was told by the "leader" that if I wanted to climb that climb, I should get up earlier, at which point we pulled their rope through, coiled it neatly, and led the climb, before moving on to another part of the crag. As stated on the "Al's rope @ Humphreys" thread, there are some assholes among us. I'm not usually that confrontational, but at the time I saw no more effective  (and peaceful) way to make my statement.

Full disclosure: 40 years ago I was the mountaineering chairperson for the CT AMC, which gave me the "huge power" of consulting my friends as to where & when they wanted to climb before sending the season's schedule to the printer of the bulletin 3 months in advance!! I lasted one year in the job.

[markvnh]

DMan - great points and thanks for the perspective. I will call the AMC today and voice my complaint of what transpired and the hypocrisy in it. With that and this may surprise you but it wasn't a young guy who didn't know better - the leader was probably my age (53) if not older.

As for the quote - that was it! Incredible!

Yeah I have to admit if I'd not walked away there would have been confrontation and it may have led to "dropping their ropes." But you know that cold beer in the truck was calling and was a much better option!

[markvnh]

Jeff - i will talk to Boston about what transpired and see if I can find out who may be "closer" to the group in question to discuss with them.

[DMan]

Let us know how it goes. I’ve know some folks I could get info from if you come up empty handed.

Jeff, I think you told me that story once... would love to have been there to see you calmly just pull & coil.... awesome!

[steve weitzler]

The "it's our rock today" attitude is not only inherent at the AMC. I have been to numerous top-rope areas over the years and been subjected to the same mentality. Whether it be the local college or high school outing club, rock gym or now even youth programs, there are a number of "climbing instructors" that feel they own the area because they were there first and have 10-15 people in tow. I always found that it doesn't make much sense to argue. You are not going to change their attitude that day.

[WharfRat]

Hate to say but it have even seen this with EMS school not just AMC. Have they come out and said this is our piece of rock or ice "no" but they sure act like it when they have ten ropes dropped on a ten rope crag and don't offer to take any down or let you use their ropes.

I have seen some other pretty hanus stuff with EMS guides like setting up top ropes for beginners on delicate hard to form WI4+5 routes in the Cat's huge chunks the size of coffee tables and five gallon buckets raining down all the while the other clients not belaying are hanging out right in the line of fire with no idea it is a bad idea while the guide or guides are not paying attention at all but talking on the phone or eating a sandwich or watching someone who can climb climb something hard on the other side of the crag.

Not that i am or am not a fan of the AMC but it is not just the AMC doing this stuff. Just the way it is if you ask me. If you don't like it don' climb.

[DMan]

WharfRat, if a TR is not being used please ask the guide if they can pull it aside. Every EMS Guide should be able to easily oblige.

We try to go out of our way to accommodate recreational climbers. If you see anything dangerous or that effects your enjoyment of a climbing area please email schools at ems dot com with the date/area/description of guide and what the offense was. We'll certainly take action.

[markvnh]

I gave the AMC a call today in Boston. Said I wanted to talk to someone about a concern I had with an AMC led group to the person that answered the phone who told me who I needed to talk to - but that person was in a meeting. I left a message and received a call back a couple hours later.

With that I explained the situation, what was said, how I've been in scenarios in the past where other larger groups of climbers have been that was manageable for everyone to have access and more importantly how I thought it was hypocritical to be stewards of the outdoors and yet essentially "restrict" access to using them. He took my concerns seriously in regards to the fact that he said he would look into what chapter, etc it might have been and would do his best to make sure it was communicated to that days leaders that the situation as I explained was unacceptable.

I thanked him for his return call, his time and for listening to my gripe.

Thanks again DMan for the suggestion earlier about getting in touch with the AMC - it was certainly the right thing to do.

[DMan]

Your welcome, and thanks for speaking up. Through respectful complaints to businesses, non-profit or not, change can happen.

[strandman]

I've never been a fan of the AMC for various reasons. Just the fact that they don't pay any property tax for the Highland Center or Pinkham Notch - and all the money they make off of those is enough of a reason (plus that Beacon Hill Joy Street address).

What really irks me is they think they own the mountains and have the rights to dictate the use of them. Just this past Sunday I went to Artist's Bluff with my partner thinking that it might be a good place to find dry rock and have an easy day. When coming down from the top we decided we would drop a rope somewhere on Little Monalisa. When we got there it was being gang roped by a beginner AMC class. When I asked the leader if he minded if we dropped a rope on an open section he replied "this is our rock today and no one else can climb here!"

Are you freaking kidding me! Talk about elitist! My blood boiled but instead of getting into any sort of confrontation (other than saying, uh OK) we decided to do something even better - go have a cold beer at the truck.

Neither one of us could believe it - "this is our rock today." Since when did the AMC become stewards of who gets to use the mountains? Their tax exempt status should be revoked!

Fuck this.. i was holding out but.. I would have shit down his throat and thne get mad.. The 'ownership" thing is fucked.. I OWN the WMNF,, not the AMC They did this shit at Quincey and rattlesnake for years.. you can't solo here !  Sure i can, watch

The only reason the beginners program existed was to score fresh meat........slim pickens indeed.

i hate people

[DMan]

Your welcome, and thanks for speaking up. Through respectful complaints to businesses, non-profit or not, change can happen.

or you can take Strand's approach 

[strandman]

Whatever works IMO... sometimes you just can't be nice

Let's see. i tried to introduce sticht plates to the beginners program around '80--no go
figure 8 instead of bowline on coil ? nope

Not one of my regular partners went through this program.. not one.. we did OK
Climbing is black and white.. no grey.. right and wrong.... i don't care....Ya i have a superior atittude to fuckers like this, 'cause i'm right and they are wrongN

i guess no routes for you and me Dman ??

[WharfRat]

Way to go Strand you broke out the "I hate people" Glad to know i am not alone....

I think deep down more people feel the same way they are just too sissy to admit it.