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[steve weitzler]

I don't remember the pickings to be slim John.....

[markvnh]

...the "Strand Approach" or a slight variation did rattle around in my head when this happened however as I've mentioned - that cold beer waiting at the truck seemed like a much better and easier option at the time!

[Jeff]

I certainly can understand the call of the cold beer in the truck!

[pappy]

It's worldwide. Sporty's first deployment in the Teams was to Europe, and one day he went to Buoux (pre 9/11, when the seals still got to fuck off). There were bunches TRs set up, an unattended one on a route he wanted to lead, so he pulled it off to one side and led the route. When he got down he said, "this Frenchie runs up and starts shouting French in my face, I don't know what he's saying. Then he pokes me in the chest with his finger. I say, 'Don't do that'. He's still shouting gibberish and pokes me again. I say a little more forcefully, 'Don't do that.' He goes to poke me again and I clock him and he rolls down the talus (note to self, don't poke a seal in the chest). Another guy comes running up and I'm ready to clock him, too, but he shouts in English, 'What did do you that for? He didn't want to fight, he just wanted to argue!'"

How French.

[DMan]

Pappy, classic LOLs.

[eyebolter]

Friend of mine wanted to climb They Died Laughing maybe 15 years ago, when it was "women's day."  Topropes set up on all the cracks, but nobody climbing.  They started to rope up and somebody said "Hey-you can't climb this. WE PAID!"  He said this is a freaking state park, whaddya mean? So she said OK you can climb, but there are 100 people in line in front of you.

It is not just the appies who are assholes.

[darwined]

Friend of mine wanted to climb They Died Laughing maybe 15 years ago, when it was "women's day."  Topropes set up on all the cracks, but nobody climbing.  They started to rope up and somebody said "Hey-you can't climb this. WE PAID!"  He said this is a freaking state park, whaddya mean? So she said OK you can climb, but there are 100 people in line in front of you.

It is not just the appies who are assholes.

I agree with this 100%.  Not all the peckerheads at the crags are AMCers,  and not all the AMCers are peckerheads.

[DMan]

Hopefully these stories remain as the rare exception rather than the norm. I certainly wouldn’t love the sport as much if that stuff happened daily. Those kind of occurrences certainly make an impact though and you don’t forget them, even 15 years later.

Not to belittle the issue, but I would coin a friend’s phrase “First World problems right?”

We’re lucky the Aholes are the vast minority in the climbing world. For every jerk I’ve met I’ve met 100 cool people... probably better odds than other hobbies...

[OldEric]

Ignoring the climbing context - where admittedly The AMC has a very questionable legacy - how about a couple of other issues that were mentioned far up stream:

1.  The salary of the CEO.  I doubt that the AMC's is out of line with other similar sized orgs.
2.   Non payment of property taxes for Highland and Pinkham because they are none profit.  I am totally ignorant on NH laws but I would hazard a guess that educational institutions and religious orgs enjoy a similar benefit.  How much real estate does Dartmouth own in NH (those of you that enjoy throwing around the 1 -per-center stereotypes (the secretly jealous ones who would trade places in a heartbeat) should have a field day with the "Ivy League"-isms)?  And we all know how much "good" the Christian religion has done.
3. Those helicopters hauling out the crap - damn much better to have poop and TP spread far and wide - like they do in the real mountains of Europe.  But I already remove my hat and sing the Star Spangled Banner whenever one of those National Guard flyboys performs his treetop stunts spewing more solution in 30 seconds then the AMC helos do in a decade.

Yup.

[slink]

The best thing the AMC created was the Vulgarian F******* Mountain Club 

[markvnh]

This will open your eyes a bit - it did mine! For year 2011:

Operations
American Alpine Club - Revenue-$1,575,000   Expenses-$1,980,000   Income/Loss-$405,000 loss
Appalachian Mountain Club - Revenue-$29,541,000   Expenses-$20,181,000   Income/Loss-$9,360,000 profit

Highest Salary
American Alpine Club - $130,554
Appalachian Mountain Club - $272,110

Net Assets (property, etc)

American Alpine Club - $6,842,000
Appalachian Mountain Club - $105,000,000

Look at those assets! And most likely no property taxes paid on any of them. Though in NH the do pay PILOT (payment in lieu of taxes) for the Highland Center. I looked for an article online that I had read once - couldn't find it - and from memory they pay less than 10% of what property tax would be for the Highland Center. Yet the town is responsible for providing all necessary public safety services (police, fire, etc). Plus I don't believe they have to pay NH "room and meals" tax either.

In regards to salaries you might say the American Alpine Club is out of line based on revenue. I'd pay that position twice that! It's our national mountaineering organization. And along with the Access Fund do more for climbing than the AMC probably has ever done.

With that and after having looked at these numbers - I'm ashamed of myself. Although I'm a a 20 year AAC member I think the next time they ask for a separate donation during fund raising - they'll be getting a donation from me. I can afford it.

But even more bothersome to me - why aren't more climbers supporting the AAC?

[steve weitzler]

I won't do the research (I will let someone else do it) but my guess is the profits of the oil industry are much higher than those of the AMC or the AAC. I would also venture a guess that the taxes the oil industry pays are not in line with the profits (offshore accounts, executive pay, dividends, etc.).  Non-profit status is only a tax classification not a statement that an organization or business is there not to make a profit. As previously mentioned religious organizations which run summer camps, colleges, and own quite a bit of property are exempt from taxes. Most people don't realize that even YMCAs are tax exempt.  Health clubs have been complaining about this for years. Health clubs are paying their taxes while many YMCAs are nothing more than health clubs that don't pay taxes. Not sure my rant really matters but our tax system is unfair and inequitable at best. I guess this opens that can of worms.

[markvnh]

That whole tax equality issue is another conversation - and wouldn't be surprised if the small company I work at pays more in taxes than ExxonMobil!

What surprises me is that the AMC is as big as it is. I really had no idea that it was a $29,000.000+ "company." I look at non-profits as organizations that "give back to the community" in some way, shape or form. Like the Salvation Army or American Red Cross (though we all know that these organizations pay huge salaries - that's not my point for comparison). I'm not sure what the AMC is giving back? To me they seem like a "hospitality" company.

My gripe with the AMC and "Little Monalisa" situation from last Sunday in my OP, when I followed up with the AMC was taken seriously and as I've commented previously - I thanked them for the return call and their time to listen to my gripe. And willingness to do something about it.

Even though I was comparing the ACC and AMC from a business perspective as non-profits what it led me to in my ending comment is possibly another thread and I'm off topic now - why don't we do a better job as a climbing community to support the AAC?

[frik]

Mark just to be clear, i think most climbers do support our national alpine organization. Many of us consider that to be the Access fund rather than the AAC. I suppose there are many folks who see no benefit from joining the AAC.

[markvnh]

Frik - both the AAC and the Access Fund get my membership dollars as I'm in a position to do so. And hopefully most climbers do support at least one of these organizations - like you say.

I was just surprised at the "size" of the AAC in comparison to the AMC. And at a quick glance the Access Fund is even smaller.