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Author Topic: warning  (Read 2934 times)

lucky luke

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warning
« on: July 29, 2013, 04:14:41 PM »

I witness. A party make there belay on a flake at the last pitch of recompense at cathedral. Fortunately, he also used a piton so his belay was.... When you place a stopper behind a flake and you gave a tug on it, small crystal of the rock broke. If some crystal are broken at every climb, the flake will get loose and fall... As you climb, avoid to place any stopper behind a flake or equalize each side of the block so it can not move (mountaineering freedom of the hill 5 ed ). In recompense, after you clip the piton, you can place good gear over it or small wire under. There is just enough place for two party to anchor. so, if the party above you is slow, you will have to wait.

On the beast flake, the bottom part will broke one day. Just ask when you are doing your layback that you keep your feet below your hand in a way that in a fall your feet will slip off the rock first, not your hand. I saw a climber with his feet over his hand on the flake. First, it is more strenuous because his feet push him outside and he have to fight the gravity. Second, in that position, his hand work as a counter force, the hand will gave up first and the climber will fall on his back. You will be in a wheelchear for the rest of your life   
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JBrochu

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Re: warning
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2013, 07:22:17 PM »

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Have a quiche, now, or maybe a tort.  You deserve it!
-bristolpipe

I like to keep things simple, even if it's faaaken painful and miserable.
-Stoney Middleton

This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption.
-Friar Tuck

DLottmann

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Re: warning
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 07:26:28 PM »

I’ve read this 6 times now, and I have to say LL it is very unlikely an aspiring new climber is going to gain anything from what you wrote.

To the point of stopper’s putting force on flakes, it is much less so than cams, so it is recommended by your bible (FoTH 5th Ed.) to use stoppers instead of cams on questionable flakes.

As for your description of their climbing technique, he really had his feet above his hands on the beast flake? I would have liked to have seen that... can’t imagine someone doing that...
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JBrochu

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Re: warning
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2013, 08:15:55 PM »

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Have a quiche, now, or maybe a tort.  You deserve it!
-bristolpipe

I like to keep things simple, even if it's faaaken painful and miserable.
-Stoney Middleton

This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption.
-Friar Tuck

sneoh

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Re: warning
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2013, 09:00:42 PM »

I have some of the same thoughts as DMan.  Huh?
And I do not get the intention of this new thread.  Crazy/stupid shit happens everyday everywhere.
One would go nutty worrying about them all.
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

JakeDatc

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Re: warning
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2013, 09:18:54 PM »

Crazy/stupid shit happens everyday everywhere.
One would go nutty worrying about them all.


haha my friend wanted to correct someone's belaying at Parking lot wall once..  i was like nope... just walk away.. you'll be here for days teaching noobs how to climb. 

I wonder what Champy woulda thought of my friend going inverted  OW style trying to pull the first hard roof on Erect Direction....

Look at this gumby on BFoBB ;)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:21:22 PM by JakeDatc »
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kenreville

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Re: warning
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2013, 09:55:25 PM »

Crazy/stupid shit happens everyday everywhere.
One would go nutty worrying about them all.


haha my friend wanted to correct someone's belaying at Parking lot wall once..  i was like nope... just walk away.. you'll be here for days teaching noobs how to climb. 

I wonder what Champy woulda thought of my friend going inverted  OW style trying to pull the first hard roof on Erect Direction....

Look at this gumby on BFoBB ;)


Farr Kinnn SICK!
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lucky luke

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Re: warning
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2013, 10:23:21 PM »

To the point of stopper’s putting force on flakes, it is much less so than cams, so it is recommended by your bible (FoTH 5th Ed.) to use stoppers instead of cams on questionable flakes....

How can a force most be harder than the maximal impact force of a fall (i.e. fall factor two with a 80 kg climber is 1200KN to meet tha uiaa norm, can be lower with new dynamic rope) . As the rope stretch in a fall, the donward force will be transmit to the weaker side of the protection. In the case of a cam, the surface will be lower, but the impact forces (pounds on the wire) will be the same. The flake on recompense will not broke as the broken strength of the rock is more 80 000 kn per square inches. But, if the flake doesn't broke, what is it to move to absorb the impact of the forces ( in perfect rock, dissipation of the force happen in the form of heat, as when you rappel and touch your rap device). So, the flake will move and after many time, it can fall. A similar situation happen in gypsy when a climber trigger a rock fall as he made the crux move.

Are you so miserable? someone can be kill if nobody take care as they climb. If you want to place pro on the flake and think that it is a good practice. Do it? don't bother normal people who want to be old climber. It took five second to place a good pro in the last pitch and it can save life of some climber, not only the one who make the bad belay, but also the one under them.

Dman, sneoh, kenreville, jakedatc...why is it so bad to increase as much as we can good practice, safety? Are you going to place a board with a gradation from one to five about good or bad rock, as you have for avalanche?  I didn't insult any body...I just make a comment so any intelligent climber will notice that the flake can move when he place his pro behind the flake if he didn't have any information about it before. It happen in intimidation!!!   
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sneoh

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Re: warning
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 10:48:32 PM »

Champ, first of all, maybe cut the verbage down a bit and just say something like "one might want to refrain from placing pro behind the flake on Pitch N of Climb Y as it flexes with (just a little) strain".  Short and sweet, and not being judgmental or arrogant.  Different people will consider the statement with different weights and everyone will be better off.  Remember, what you think is a BIG deal might be just so-so to someone else and your way of writing comes across as arrogant and "I know so much more than you, dummy" to many.  I am SURE that is not your intent but it sure comes across that way many a times.
Signing off this thread for good. Ciao.
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

krankonthis

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Re: warning
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 11:12:49 PM »

whoa, is championing also lucky luke?
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Jeff

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Re: warning
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 11:23:45 PM »

whoa, is championing also lucky luke?
You got it!
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SA

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Re: warning
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2013, 07:51:17 AM »

Champ,

I have never responded to one of your post, and am not sure which flake on Recompense you are describing. I assume it is at the belay ledge, where the tree stump remains.

I know that flake has a little flex, but there are plenty of options there for other pro. as well. Anyone could stress over possible dangers to climbers, and many off the older climbers can think back on close calls they had on the rock.

I took a 100 ft. fall in Yosemite because I was careless driving a pin behind an expanding flake, instead of placing a nut,
( which I did, when I went back up).

I wouldn't stress out over other peoples lack of experience. People make mistakes in every sport, and some learn from them;
hopefully without injury or worse. It really amazes me how few injuries there are in this crazy sport.

Last week I went up and checked out the piton I placed 45 years ago on Intimidation, on the 2nd pitch, just as you traverse left to Bonfire ledge. I often wondered just how good it was over the years, and knew that since it wasn't driven in all the way, was a poor placement. Since I was going up to check out the rockfall, I thought that I would check out the pin as well.

I took a hammer along, and removed it, with little effort. It would not of held a long fall, but I remember it holding me in a fall, when the slab was all wet.

I put it back in, but plan to go up soon, and try a shorter lost arrow pin, which hopefully will be a better placement.
I also cleaned out a seam, with my nut tool, just to the right of this pin, which looks like a BOMBER nut placement for one of those small brass stoppers.

If you want to worry about something--how often do the pins get checked, with a hammer, that climbers clip everyday.

Most of the younger climbers have never used a hammer, and wouldn't have the experience to know if a pin is good or not.

Best, Steve



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JakeDatc

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Re: warning
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2013, 09:00:44 AM »

Crazy/stupid shit happens everyday everywhere.
One would go nutty worrying about them all.


haha my friend wanted to correct someone's belaying at Parking lot wall once..  i was like nope... just walk away.. you'll be here for days teaching noobs how to climb. 

I wonder what Champy woulda thought of my friend going inverted  OW style trying to pull the first hard roof on Erect Direction....

Look at this gumby on BFoBB ;)


Farr Kinnn SICK!

btw that isn't my friend on belly full of bad berries (his picture involves pink tights eek)  .. but he has been on the route. but that is the move he tried on E.D (didn't work but it was fun watching him get creative)

sure is dangerous when your feet get above your hands ;)

Quote
As the rope stretch in a fall, the donward force will be transmit to the weaker side of the protection. In the case of a cam, the surface will be lower, but the impact forces (pounds on the wire) will be the same.

A cam is built to expand when force is applied to it,  it creates MUCH more force than passive pro behind a flake.   
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 09:23:13 AM by JakeDatc »
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DLottmann

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Re: warning
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2013, 09:05:52 AM »

...I just make a comment so any intelligent climber will notice that the flake can move when he place his pro behind the flake if he didn't have any information about it before. It happen in intimidation!!!   

I like discussing safety as well Champ/Lucky Luke.

If you had said “inspect rock before placing pro, especially behind flakes” your point would have gotten across clearer.

Instead your long-winded explanations come out confusing and turn people off, even “intelligent people”.

Cams put more stress on the rock than nuts in a fall = FACT

That is all.
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steveclimbs

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Re: warning
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2013, 07:00:29 PM »

lets bolt everything, especially belays, then we don't have to worry about anything.
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