Author Topic: warning  (Read 3836 times)

Offline sneoh

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2084
Re: warning
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2013, 09:51:31 AM »
Correct, Jeff, that is what I meant by "leader is the hand" (= threading the grigri wrong).

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline eyebolter

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
Re: warning
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2013, 06:37:56 PM »
Threading the gri gri wrong is not a hard mistake to make, but belaying with it threaded wrong is only possible by being careless.  A quick upward jerk on the climber side of the rope tells you all you need to know.  I do it every time.

And most climbers who are dropped on a gri gri don't get too badly hurt (unless threaded wrong, which is an inexcusable error).  Most errors are the belayer holding the gri gri tight and the climber falling, but at a reduced rate (this is why i always let go of the gri gri when belaying a leader fall, despite what Petzel tells you).  Losing the brake hand on an ATC is far more likely to be fatal.

DLottmann

  • Guest
Re: warning
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2013, 07:04:19 PM »
Threading the gri gri wrong is not a hard mistake to make, but belaying with it threaded wrong is only possible by being careless.  A quick upward jerk on the climber side of the rope tells you all you need to know.  I do it every time.

And most climbers who are dropped on a gri gri don't get too badly hurt (unless threaded wrong, which is an inexcusable error).  Most errors are the belayer holding the gri gri tight and the climber falling, but at a reduced rate (this is why i always let go of the gri gri when belaying a leader fall, despite what Petzel tells you).  Losing the brake hand on an ATC is far more likely to be fatal.

When you say "let go of the gri gri" you don't let go of the brake strand do you? Of course you don't, I just read that weird. Why would Petzl say not to let go of the Gri-Gri while catching a leader fall? I see no reason to touch the device while catching a fall...

Here's a question for all you seasoned (and not-so-seasoned) folks...

How often do you check your regular partners belay set-up before leaving the ground?

I have watched hundreds of experienced climbers make brief eye contact while asking "on belay", without actually checking.

We are human, and make mistakes.

Even with my most trusted safest rad-est partner I do not say "on belay" unless;

1) I inspect his tie-in
2) He inspects my belay set up.

And I'm a 10 year climbing guide (20 year climber).

Every. Time. Period.

I've started tie-ing in incorrectly intentionally to see if my intermediate and advanced clients can catch it before I leave the ground. Like just tie-ing into my leg-loop or not finishing the figure-8 cuz I was busy telling some story... Of course I don't climb if they don't catch it and we can chat about how little things like this can get over-looked after years of climbing. Complacency is a killer.

Oh, my almost grounder on Junco was from an improperly threaded Gri-Gri... I was cleaning it on top-rope... rope feeds smooth since it's a slow progression, unlike clipping during a lead. Neither I or my very trusted partner checked the GriGri... my partner had 2 years experience but never with a GriGri. As I was being lowered all seemed normal until I got on the vertical and started free falling. Luckily she was a strong girl and arrested the fall with brute strength after only 15 feet.  I clipped the closest bolt direct while my other partner discovered the issue... f'ing scary that was...

My fault for not checking before leaving the ground.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 07:07:29 PM by DMan »

Offline Smear

  • NEClimbs Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
Re: warning
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2013, 05:11:53 AM »
That one is still fresh in my head Dman.
When I belay with a gri gri, I always give the climbers side of the rope a couple of tugs as Ward does
to show my partner that is is threaded correctly(as well as give my locker a pinch to show it is locked  :)  )

Offline pappy

  • NEClimbs Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: warning
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2013, 07:39:29 AM »
Don't get me started on my gri-gri tirade. It is a niche device useful in a few situations but a poor second choice as a device for most real world applications. I've never seen a reason to get one. As a friend of mine observed 15 years ago, 'gri-gri' is French for 'dumb-dumb.'
If you're gonna be stupid, you gotta be tough.

Offline DGoguen

  • NEClimbs Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
Re: warning
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2013, 07:52:33 AM »
When I belay with a gri gri, I always give the climbers side of the rope a couple of tugs as Ward does
I do the same tug when I use an ATC or similar in auto lock mode belaying a second, every time.
Don't Climb

Offline eyebolter

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
Re: warning
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2013, 08:35:29 AM »
Don't get me started on my gri-gri tirade. It is a niche device useful in a few situations but a poor second choice as a device for most real world applications. I've never seen a reason to get one. As a friend of mine observed 15 years ago, 'gri-gri' is French for 'dumb-dumb.'

I said the same thing to Paula, until I used one.  Now I won't use anything else.   

I do let go of the brake hand when holding a leader fall.   I have no idea why Petzel tells you not to since it is the only way you can screw up as long as you didn't thread incorrectly.   I mean, do you fiddle with your automatic seat belt in the middle of a crash?

Offline Jeff

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 811
  • I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: warning
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2013, 09:08:44 AM »
Sorry, but I can't see how continuing to hold on to the brake strand can in any way "screw up" the function of the Grigri, which is an "assisted braking device" , not an automatic one. I was the American delegate to the UIAA Safety Commission when Petzl first introduced the Grigri, and their designer at the time strongly stated the point that one still had to keep control of the brake hand (people in Europe were touting it as an autolocking device--as many climbers and sales people still do). I know eyebolter's experience and skill level and admire it, but believe that recommending EVER letting go of the brake hand is a disservice to the climbing population at large. In fact, when I stated some time ago on this forum that I used a grigri in the winter to belay guided clients with iced up ropes (the easier pull saves the leader's elbows from tendonitis), I was questioned by some who worried about slippage; I pointed out that I never take my hand off the brake strand, unless I tie a "catastrophe" knot below the device. Not JMHO (also the manufacturer's recommendation for use).

Offline DaveR

  • NEClimbs Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
Re: warning
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2013, 09:46:31 AM »
I pointed out that I never take my hand off the brake strand, unless I tie a "catastrophe" knot below the device. Not JMHO (also the manufacturer's recommendation for use).

If you take an AMGA exam it has been my experience that you had better keep your hand on the brake end or back it with a knot.  Someone I took the exam with failed for not backing up a gri-gri with a knot and removing his hand from the brake end! All that work to fail for removing your hand without a backup!

Offline M_Sprague

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
Re: warning
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2013, 10:25:17 AM »
I would have to agree, Ward, that I don't see the point of letting go of the brake hand and that purposely doing so is a bad muscle memory to ingrain. It is one more back up just in case you spaced and didn't catch misloading the GriGri or if somehow the lever catches on something. You have never dropped me over the years of climbing together (though I have had a few times flying through the air when I have had time to think "OK, Ward, time to hit the brake"), but that is one of your quirks that gives the edge to your brother when I have a choice of who is to belay me on a route with bigger fall potential. I would still rather have you belaying than most other people all in all though.

I think people who diss GriGris are just being Luddites or haven't learned to use them properly. Like any gear, you can't be a complete moron when using it, or complacent enough to not double check your and your partner's set-up.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline eyebolter

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
Re: warning
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2013, 10:31:24 AM »
Is there a single example of somebody decking because the belayer let go of a properly threaded  gri gri?   I don"t think so. 

On the other hand, I myself have seen numerous people deck in the gym because the belayer panicked and clamped down on the device.   

I clamp down on the device to feed rope to a leader who is clipping.  So the only way I can screw up is by not letting go, as far as I can tell.  That is why I never use anything but a gri gri anymore.   To clarify I do keep a hold on the brake hand if I know the fall is coming, but for the unexpected fall when feeding out rope I let go of everything.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 10:35:02 AM by eyebolter »

Offline M_Sprague

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
Re: warning
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2013, 10:32:30 AM »
Ward, by "brake hand' you mean the right hand that is supposed to be at least nominally around the rope, correct? Or are you referring to the hand controlling the brake lever? I suppose that is not even clear, as I clamp down on the device with my right hand when feeding slack too, and use my left on the lever for lowering.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 10:35:28 AM by M_Sprague »
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline M_Sprague

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
Re: warning
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2013, 10:41:38 AM »
  To clarify I do keep a hold on the brake hand if I know the fall is coming, but for the unexpected fall when feeding out rope I let go of everything.
OK, That makes more sense. Personally, I only use my two small fingers to clamp the GriGri when pulling slack, while my thumb and first finger are still making a loose ring around the rope, so in case of a fall I release the other fingers and the ring is already in position to guide them onto the rope further out.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is not a path and leave a trail."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline Jeff

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 811
  • I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: warning
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2013, 11:23:34 AM »
To demonstrate use of the new Grigri 2, Petzl put out a pretty good video, with one of their better pro climbers  (Chris Sharma! 8)) demonstrating feeding rope; right fore finger under the lip, right thumb on the cam to hold it open , other 3 fingers of right hand around the brake strand, pulling slack with the then free left hand. I've practiced this, and find it works quite well-- I've also caught a surprise fall with it, and found that my right thumb slipped off the cam instantly leaving me in proper belay position with the right hand on the brake strand. I now teach this method to clients who have grigris, and they seem to grasp it quickly (no pun intended  ;D). JFWIW
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 11:26:29 AM by Jeff »

Offline strandman

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Posts: 4712
Re: warning
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2013, 11:48:48 AM »
Luddite here... :) i did upgrade from sticht plate to a tube.... i think GGmay be in the future (if i get a used one, cheap)