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Author Topic: warning  (Read 3272 times)

pappy

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Re: warning
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2013, 11:59:21 AM »


I think people who diss GriGris are just being Luddites or haven't learned to use them properly. Like any gear, you can't be a complete moron when using it, or complacent enough to not double check your and your partner's set-up.

I think that's a dumb thing to say. To review: Gri-gris are more expensive, heavier, and more complex than an ATC type device. They are also unsuitable for alpine, ice, or double ropes. They may provide a slightly larger margin of error--assuming that the perceived 'foolproofness' doesn't contribute to belayer inattention, thereby making them more dangerous--but I avoid climbing with morons, so that is of much less interest than versatility, weight, and cost. It offers no belay advantage when belayed by an attentive and competent belayer. And by the way, anything with a moving part is more likely to fail than something that has no moving parts. Outside of belaying long tedious aid pitches there is no practical advantage, although I can see where it might provide more convenience for sport climbing, which I guess is where you are coming from. The success of the Gri-gri is a triumph of marketing, playing on people's fears, which is of course a great marketing strategy, but a poor substitute for competence.
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eyebolter

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Re: warning
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2013, 12:08:58 PM »

I m going to ask the question again.  Can anyone give me a single example of a climber being dropped by the belayer letting go of the rope on a properly threaded gri-gri?

And Pappy, don't get one or you will never go back.  I don't know how many routes I cleaned and bolted using an old style rappel device and then wrapping the rope around my numb leg 20 times.  You can go hands free with the gri gr (I do it every time I clean/bolt a route) and even work out the moves by yourself.  Not to mention holding someone while they are dogging out the moves on a route.   And the belay advantage is obvious due to the fact that your belayer can be dead and will still catch your fall.   

Of course the limitations for icy ropes, double ropes etc are all true. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 12:13:18 PM by eyebolter »
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fresh

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Re: warning
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2013, 12:25:06 PM »

I m going to ask the question again.  Can anyone give me a single example of a climber being dropped by the belayer letting go of the rope on a properly threaded gri-gri?
one of the big-name NH guides told me that he's seen it happen while sport climbing in france. someone dropped a climber because there was enough rope out and enough rope drag that the rope slipped through the device slowly enough for the cam to not engage. this is now third-hand, not exactly reliable information, so I can understand any eye-rolling at this one :-)
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sneoh

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Re: warning
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2013, 12:29:41 PM »

I like to echo what Jeff said; the video on use of the GG2 from Petzl (featuring Sharma and Daila) is good.  The described method is (muc) easier to master on the GG2 than the orginal, bulkier GG. 

GG is not the plain jane belay/rappel device that the ATC is.  As with most specialized tools, it is good to know its strengths.  It is equally important to understand its limitations and know how to use it properly.  It is not magic and Petzl does not claim it to be auto-locking (which some newbies tend to mistake it for).
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pappy

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Re: warning
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2013, 12:49:47 PM »


And Pappy, don't get one or you will never go back.  I don't know how many routes I cleaned and bolted using an old style rappel device and then wrapping the rope around my numb leg 20 times.  You can go hands free with the gri gr (I do it every time I clean/bolt a route) and even work out the moves by yourself.  Not to mention holding someone while they are dogging out the moves on a route.

This touches on the cultural difference the dum-dum represents. Back when I was putting up routes--and I probably put up a couple of hundred, but after awhile you lose count or even interest in naming them--I rap cleaned and bolted less than five. I'm still of the school that the best way is to walk up and climb it (and clean and bolt if required) on sight ground up. Weird, huh. Maybe that's what Sprague means by a Luddite.
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eyebolter

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Re: warning
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2013, 01:17:08 PM »

I m going to ask the question again.  Can anyone give me a single example of a climber being dropped by the belayer letting go of the rope on a properly threaded gri-gri?
one of the big-name NH guides told me that he's seen it happen while sport climbing in france. someone dropped a climber because there was enough rope out and enough rope drag that the rope slipped through the device slowly enough for the cam to not engage. this is now third-hand, not exactly reliable information, so I can understand any eye-rolling at this one :-)

No eye rolling, I have seen it myself with lots of rope drag and the cam doesn't engage.  But "dropped" is hardly the operative word, more like slowly lowered.
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DaveR

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Re: warning
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2013, 02:50:09 PM »

Luddite here... :) i did upgrade from sticht plate to a tube.... i think GGmay be in the future (if i get a used one, cheap)

Get your ASS out of the hospital you caveman and I will send you one! All I need to know is where to send it.
Dave R
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Admin Al

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Re: warning
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2013, 03:39:24 PM »

  I mean, do you fiddle with your automatic seat belt in the middle of a crash?

 ;)
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: warning
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2013, 06:10:18 PM »

Great devise for solo tr and  rope solo leading. probobly the best thing since Old E for aid.  Normal cragging, ice climbing, alpine etc i use an ATC guide.
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lucky luke

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Re: warning
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2013, 06:38:09 PM »

The success of the Gri-gri is a triumph of marketing, playing on people's fears, which is of course a great marketing strategy, but a poor substitute for competence.

By competence...did you means to see zipper effect and advice your leader? to see that in a fall, the rope will be catch by the feet of the leader and he will turn up side down if you don't warn him? gave a dynamic belay in a "r" route with rp's or questionable pro to maximize the chance of a clean fall? Keeping the rope just enough tie that the leader don't feel the rope drag of the belay, but short enough that in a fall the leader don't fall 5 or 6 feet lower than suppose and hit a ledge? maybe that it is just someone who said the good word at the good time and kick your ass so you make the move efficiently without rushing in it? or...

just a grigri and  bolts? no human interaction?
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M_Sprague

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Re: warning
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2013, 07:10:55 PM »

I think we need a "Lucky Luke" edition of the GriGri 2 to come out. It would make a great Christmas gift for all the climbers on your list. You"ve got a great brand name there, luke. You could probably sell Lucky Luke harnesses to Walmarts.

-with warning labels, of course! I can't wait to see the directions manual.  :P
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 07:14:29 PM by M_Sprague »
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eyebolter

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Re: warning
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2013, 07:53:23 PM »

Since nobody can post even one example of someone being dropped by a no hands belay on a properly threaded gri gri (other than slow motion) I will tell you why Petzel states that you should not let go of the brake hand in two words: fucking lawyers.
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M_Sprague

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Re: warning
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2013, 08:15:42 PM »

Yes, but why take your hand off? Anyone with a bit of training in the device and especially years of experience using it would know not to clamp the thing open in a panic. So why train yourself to let go in the case of an unexpected fall, which would be potentially catastrophic when you have to use another device and take out another layer of safety for no gain. Makes no sense to me.

For a beginner they should just be trained enough and made to belay with a back-up person while catching unexpected falls enough that the proper action is automatic, just like when learning to use an ATC.
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JakeDatc

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Re: warning
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2013, 08:32:59 PM »

I know that if you grab above an auto-assist device  that it can mess up the action of the cam..   like in the increased drag scenario.  I don't think grabbing below while braking does that.   When i catch a fall on my Cinch i'm usually off the ground pretty quick so i grab the brake for something to hold onto  in the least haha :)
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DLottmann

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Re: warning
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2013, 08:33:57 PM »

Since nobody can post even one example of someone being dropped by a no hands belay on a properly threaded gri gri (other than slow motion) I will tell you why Petzel states that you should not let go of the brake hand in two words: fucking lawyers.

First off, 12 hours isnít really long enough to let people dig up examples...

Second, I highly doubt it has anything to do with lawyers (paranoid much?).

Third, it has already been stated why it makes no sense to let go of the brake. But to re-iterate;

1) If there is high friction in the system the cam may not engage if there isnít some resistance on the back end, aka the BRAKE HAND.

2) Itís a bad habit to get into since most people expect to use many different devices in their climbing...

Let me pose your question a little differently...

Can anyone give me a single example of a climber being dropped by the belayer while firmly holding the brake strand on a properly threaded gri-gri?

It should become instinct when catching a fall with any device to let go with the none-break-hand. Even with an ATC, I like to see the ďoff-handĒ travel over to the brake side of the device... This practice is safer than simply throwing your hands up in the air to let the camming action do itís thing.

And one last time, resistance on the brake side of the device aids in the cam engaging... that is why Petzl (and everyone but you) keeps a brake hand on the rope when catching with the GriGri.

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