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Author Topic: warning  (Read 2770 times)

slink

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Re: warning
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2013, 08:51:23 PM »

Reality is that climbing is DANGEROUS. Do not climb if you are not willing to accept resposibility for yourself and others around you. If you see an unsafe act call people out on it they may just not know. If they do not like it and continue to be unsafe leave. I have done this before and saved myself the hassle of a rescue later in the day. I now prefer back country routes with few people.
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bailing is not failing!!!

lucky luke

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Re: warning
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2013, 11:53:45 PM »

I have never responded to one of your post, and am not sure which flake on Recompense you are describing. I assume it is at the belay ledge, where the tree stump remains.

I know that flake has a little flex, but there are plenty of options there for other pro. as well. Anyone could stress over possible dangers to climbers, and many off the older climbers can think back on close calls they had on the rock.
;

SA, if you read what I wrote, I explain why that flake begin to move in my post: "When you place a stopper behind a flake and you gave a tug on it, small crystal of the rock broke. If some crystal are broken at every climb, the flake will get loose and fall... "

This is what you said with a little flex???

I also describe some option to place the pro and be safer. As you wrote I "stress over possible danger to climber"...for the flake and also for the layback technique. 

instead of rewriting what I am saying in a way that most people understand, instead of giving a picture of the flake that we talk about to understand the problem....people insult me. Even you can't be able to use the name I use Lucky luke in your post.

That attitude of insulting other in a way that he will fill miserable to the rest of the community, bother a lot of good climber who, like sling wrote, prefer to go climbing in remote area, instead of gave back to the community a little of a precious knowledge. Even if he said that he warn.

If you think that Base take white gloves to told me that I made some thing stupid...you are wrong. It went out as it is...I listen understand what he was saying and have more respect for him than I can have to a climber of 5.12 who place other people in dangerous situation.

Look at the post of slink. He told people that they made mistake and had to rescue them after. It is the attitude that you use in your post that gave credit to the beginner climber, whit low safety knowledge and hard climbing technique, to be proud when they made mistake and don't listen to some warning. (note I am sure that, as you climb with Larsen and other, you will have honest crag talk with your partner)

N.B. slink recompense is not dangerous because a flake is loose. Removing the flake is dangerous because it is a kind of erosion. Better to keep it there and warn the people to be wise. 
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SA

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Re: warning
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2013, 10:04:19 AM »

Lucky Luke,

Sorry if my post offended you, as I meant no disrespect.

As I said, earlier "I wouldn't stress out over other peoples lack of experience. People make mistakes in every sport, and some learn from them;
hopefully without injury or worse. It really amazes me how few injuries there are in this crazy sport."

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sneoh

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Re: warning
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2013, 02:06:02 PM »

As I said, earlier "I wouldn't stress out over other peoples lack of experience. People make mistakes in every sport, and some learn from them;
hopefully without injury or worse. It really amazes me how few injuries there are in this crazy sport."
+1, my thoughts and sentiments exactly.  Climbing may not be as "extreme" as it may seem  .....   
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

lucky luke

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Re: warning
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2013, 04:50:56 PM »

As I said, earlier "I wouldn't stress out over other peoples lack of experience. People make mistakes in every sport, and some learn from them;
hopefully without injury or worse. It really amazes me how few injuries there are in this crazy sport."

Thank you SA.

As I climb, I don't stress too much over mistake. When I do more than five mistake in a route...I bail. I most see the mistake to understand that it is a mistake.

The example of the guy on recompense is a good one. They were good climber with a lot of motivation. There strength and young age make them bummer in most situation. At the bolt pitch, they are tied in to the anchor with one cordelete, on one bolt, in a sling shut way. As the climber push again the wall, he put all the weight on his arm...in case of a fall, neither of them was in a position to protect the other.

If you read the thread "what should we wrote in an accident" and you red my post at the beginning of this one, you will see that it is the same structure of English: present the fact, gave an explication of the danger...and discuss a solution for that problem.

I admit that you are roight that we don't have to stress over mistake as we are stronger after and wiser too. I am asking should we ignore them? and have accident as we had in Quebec this summer when a women of thirty died as a misunderstood communication or as the rap accident in north end practice slab.

I make a lot of mistake and I always start a warning in my head.   
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 04:52:44 PM by lucky luke »
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JBrochu

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Re: warning
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2013, 05:36:44 PM »



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DGoguen

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Re: Re: warning
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2013, 08:01:24 PM »

Quote from: lucky luke link=topic=7898.msg1#msg1
When I do more than five mistake in a route...I bail.
[/quote

No disrespect intended, Jacques, but I can't help thinking how this is a "rule of thumb" solution that you usually disdain.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 08:01:16 AM by DGoguen »
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sneoh

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Re: warning
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2013, 09:16:41 PM »

My wife and my friends often tell me I've made five mistakes long before I got to the crag for a day's of climbing.
By Champ's method, I should quite definitely give up climbing before I hurt myself and others.


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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DLottmann

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Re: warning
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2013, 09:34:28 PM »

LL/Champ, where did you come up with the magic number 5?
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sneoh

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Re: warning
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2013, 10:06:24 PM »

Because, as everyone knows, if you were to make that sixth mistake on a route, you are as good as DEAD.  :)

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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

lucky luke

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Re: Re: warning
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2013, 12:05:47 PM »

Quote from: lucky luke link=topic=7898.msg1#msg1
When I do more than five mistake in a route...I bail.
[/quote

No disrespect intended, Jacques, but I can't help thinking how this is a "rule of thumb" solution that you usually disdain.

I don't know what you want to say by disdain as every rule of thumb have there own value. In recompense, I link the second and third pitch, I did the flake. At the top, the arÍte can cut the rope in case of a fall in the chimney...going to death. One solution is to sling the big block at the top of the flake. I suppose that if you sling the block, the force will be downward and won't make any think dangerous. There is two "mistake" here, as the best solution is to make the anchor at the top of the flake, but you have to choose between one of them.

O.K. I did my "mea culpa" I did mistake. Why the guy who climbed the route above us don't make them and bring to the community good safety advice to make our sport better?

Sneoh prefer to wait to have and accident. Just the fact. those guy are stupid they made a silly mistake...It is what I feel reading him. Nothing to save any climber like using the crack instead of the flex flake.

Jbrochu is the guy who jump every where: I send a picture on internet...I send a picture on internet... and so on

Dman is the true I am guiding and I know that if you don't climb, you won't have any accident.

What about you Dave? You are a strong leader and a good guy. What your comment bring to safety in climbing? Don't listen to lucky and use the flex falke so we can ctritic after???? What is your motivation to favorise good practice and inform youing strong and skill climber that climbing on bolt need muscle and climbing on trad need to be able to think deeply at what can happen if there is a fall?
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DGoguen

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Re: Re: warning
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2013, 01:11:10 PM »

What about you Dave? What your comment bring to safety in climbing?
None at all. I wasn't trying to.
I was trying to understand and maybe learn something from your rational for bailing after 5 "mistakes".
If you count linking the beast flake and the chimney as a mistake you must reach five pretty quick.
I'm not insulting or disrespecting you, I enjoy speaking to you personally at the crag on occasion.
The difference between live interaction with you and the internet is staggering really.
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DLottmann

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Re: Re: warning
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2013, 01:12:54 PM »

The difference between live interaction with you and the internet is staggering really.

From my one and only live interaction with Champ/LL I must agree!
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DGoguen

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Re: Re: warning
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2013, 01:34:46 PM »

What about you Dave?  What is your motivation to favorise good practice and inform youing strong and skill climber that climbing on bolt need muscle and climbing on trad need to be able to think deeply at what can happen if there is a fall?
Pretty much none whatsoever.
Don't get me wrong, I have mentored many over the years.
The poor young strong climbers will figure it out just like we did and before you know it will be "thinking deeply of what can happen in a fall".
I hope we never figure climbing out to the degree that you strive to quantify, that will be the true death of it.

respectfully
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 01:36:34 PM by DGoguen »
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lucky luke

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Re: Re: warning
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2013, 10:39:24 PM »

What about you Dave? What your comment bring to safety in climbing?
None at all. I wasn't trying to.
I was trying to understand and maybe learn something from your rational for bailing after 5 "mistakes".

I am trying to bring more safety in climbing. I agree that I liked climbing with you. I still place my carabiner in the same way that you show me in murder wall. Great climb, but I wasn't accostume with jumars as I didn't own any. Curiously, I led the second pitch and felt close to twenty feet, finish the route...and my second had the same problem has me. But he had his two jumars.

The first question was should we stress over mistake or should we ignore mistake? My answer was that we should stress mistake when it's help the community to be better climber, not to insult people.

To not insult people, I gave example of mistake that I do.... The conclusion of many reading and practice was that after a certain number of mistake...people have accident. You are  not in. You go to work and nothing works.  It can happen in climbing. Why five mistake I think that too many is impossible and two few is not possible as well. As it is my personal evaluation (personally I bail after five mistake) I don't have really to explain it. But if some one think that it is a good idea, why not?

In recompense, that day, I did two mistake and my anchor was not solid as I like. I take the good hole with my wrong hand in the crux, but I was able to change my position and make the move differently. So, it is not a mistake. Falling, for me, is not a mistake.

It is hard to sort between many discussion in a same time. To gave a direction, a good text structure is important. In school, we learned structure to have a good communication. A good communication is to have criteria to discuss of an accident, for example, to help people to not hijack the thread, but to participate without the impression that they are numb. They made a mistake and it can help all the other friend/climber.



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