Author Topic: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!  (Read 1702 times)

Offline Admin Al

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Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« on: August 26, 2013, 11:00:47 AM »
This was a huge tragedy, but I don't see how manslaughter charges fits into it! If this actually goes to trial and there are convictions, it could have a serious impact on climbing.

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/manslaughter-charges-filed-after-titos-accident

What do you think?
Al Hospers
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Offline crazyt

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2013, 11:41:16 AM »
Assume nothing, take nothing for granted when it comes to your life.  The problem is he was a 12 yr old kid and isn't old enough to assume full responsibility for his own health and well being.
work hard, play harder

Offline Admin Al

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2013, 11:58:16 AM »
The problem is he was a 12 yr old kid and isn't old enough to assume full responsibility for his own health and well being.

++
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DLottmann

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2013, 03:49:19 PM »
This is the wrong way for the father to handle his grief... but I agree instructions should have come on the equipment...

Offline DaveR

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2013, 04:52:43 PM »
This is the wrong way for the father to handle his grief... but I agree instructions should have come on the equipment...

The article says there were no instructions but do we know that for a fact? Even when instructions are given many people throw them out and never read them! Ask how many people have read the instructions that come with the Gri-gri that they use all the time.

Offline eyebolter

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2013, 05:06:55 PM »
Mrs. Eyebolter commented on her new draws like 10 years ago, " this is potentially dangerous, someone could get killed."   Not saying the father should sue, but the set up is not at all clear if you don't have any experience.

Offline David_G48

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2013, 05:15:53 PM »
Let the father be put on notice as he could be charged next for letting his son participate in such a dangerous activity when his son was of an age that would make him not capable of knowing what his father was getting him into as a sport. I believe that a charge along the lines of reckless or wanton endangerment could be applied by the magistrate against the father. I guess he would say that he thought rock climbing was safe.... yeah right duh!

Offline sneoh

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2013, 05:41:18 PM »
While I like the Petzl Strings for keeping my rope side biner in place on my QD, they are beefy enough to "hide the fact" that the biner is not threaded through the nylon part of the QD.  I am starting to think the skinny, "rubber-band" kind of keeper is better in the sense that such a mistake would be easier to spot.

In any case, do not use something like the String or "rubber band" keeper with open slings to create a super long draw.
Watch this video (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68190)  It made my hair stand on end.  There was a death (in 2010?) down at New River Gorge; climber fell from the anchors of Rico Suave.  Most likely failure scenario is the one portrayed in the video.  No mention of lawsuit; climber was "experienced", an adult, and she apparently was using her own equipment to anchor in.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 05:43:50 PM by sneoh »

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline eyebolter

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2013, 06:23:27 PM »
While I like the Petzl Strings for keeping my rope side biner in place on my QD, they are beefy enough to "hide the fact" that the biner is not threaded through the nylon part of the QD.  I am starting to think the skinny, "rubber-band" kind of keeper is better in the sense that such a mistake would be easier to spot.

In any case, do not use something like the String or "rubber band" keeper with open slings to create a super long draw.
Watch this video (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68190)  It made my hair stand on end.  There was a death (in 2010?) down at New River Gorge; climber fell from the anchors of Rico Suave.  Most likely failure scenario is the one portrayed in the video.  No mention of lawsuit; climber was "experienced", an adult, and she apparently was using her own equipment to anchor in.

Good video.  In order to die she must have been clipped into only one draw, unless you believe that two draws got messed up in the pack.  Won't happen to me.

Offline DaveR

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 06:36:36 PM »
If you own a drill and you bolt you better watch out! YOU are the root cause of this accident! No bolts and none of this would have ever happened! :P

Offline eyebolter

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 07:39:42 PM »
If you own a drill and you bolt you better watch out! YOU are the root cause of this accident! No bolts and none of this would have ever happened! :P

Nah, it is people having babies.  Poor kid never would have died had he not been born.

darwined

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2013, 08:43:01 PM »
If O.J. Simpson and Casey Anthony can walk, those folks have nothing to worry about.  Any lawyer worth their salt will put this to bed quickly. 

Offline sneoh

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2013, 10:06:08 PM »
Ward, I believe after the accident, a party found two lockers on the anchors of RS.  No slings.  So the hypothesis is she had "doubled up" the 2-footer slings (a common practice for me and many others) and brought it up with her to the top of the climb.

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline Admin Al

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2013, 07:55:12 AM »
This video actually pretty clearly illustrates how this could have happened. BTW no one knows yet what brand of draw was being used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kSaTOIlMb4
Al Hospers
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Offline pappy

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Re: Manslaughter charges filed after Tito's accident!!!
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2013, 09:14:20 AM »
If you own a drill and you bolt you better watch out! YOU are the root cause of this accident! No bolts and none of this would have ever happened! :P

Back in the late '80s and early '90s when the scourge of sport climbing first got rolling I predicted that route developers could be potentially liable. I've drilled a lot of bolts, almost all 8mm Petzl self drives, because I was doing it for me to get to the top. If someone else wanted to repeat the climb, well, that was cool but not the primary consideration and no claims made for the gear--that was essentially residue from my ascent. However, if you develop a climb specifically to be repeated and make that fact known and even promoted via guidebooks etc., then I think you have assumed a greater degree of liability. It's probably a testament to the over engineered  nature of modern bolts and the lack of siezable wealth of most climbers that this hasn't come up yet, (that I'm aware of).
I also predicted (hoped) that climbing would develop to where the cutting edge would be for young hot shots to climb 'sport' climbs attempting to avoid using as many (or all) of the bolts as possible (has to be done on sight to be fair) and then removing the 'unnecessary' bolts. They could then string the hangers into a necklace as trophies. It would be immediately obvious then who the big dawgs were. Psyched when Trotter essentially did this with 'The Path' at the back of the Lake, but it didn't catch on. Yet.
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