NEClimbs.com forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Reading the forum on your cell phone? There's an easier way. We've enabled a Tapatalk app that makes browsing the forum a whole lot easier. Check it out in the iPhone or Android store if you don't own it already.

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8   Go Down

Author Topic: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad  (Read 2706 times)

Jeff

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 782
  • I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2013, 09:40:56 AM »

Just one quick response and then I'll ask for group intervention as well; Dave, I started working on the UIAA Safety Commission in 1979  (35 years ago last May) at the meeting at the Mohonk Mountain House when it was first proposed to raise the # of UIAA falls that a rope had to pass to get the UIAA label from 3 to 5. At that time NO ONE was making a rope for ANY climbing or mountaineering purpose that contained ANY hemp. In fact when I started climbing in France in 1964 (nearly 50 years ago) everyone I saw was using nylon kernmantel ropes at ALL times, although I did know some "dinosaurs" (impecunious Brits for the most part) who still used a waist loop ( picture the classic swami belt of  several wraps of 1 inch tubular webbing) made of a laid cord static material , perhaps hemp, but usually nylon, to which they tied the climbing rope with a bowline ("noeud de guide" in French, at the time). This method of tying in was shown in many of the early British climbing manuals. In the late 60s here in the States lots of climbers used laid NYLON ropes made by Goldline or earlier by Plymouth Cordage. A group of us in the CT AMC bought a couple of 600' spools of 7/16 inch Goldline and cut it into 150 foot lengths (standard at the time) to share and save $, since imported Edelrid ropes were too pricey! ($30 or more for a 15 foot rope when two guys could get 4 drafts and 4 slices of pizza in New Paltz for $2!) Therefore ANY discussion of using HEMP ropes in modern climbing is in NO WAY informative for "noobs" or for the rest of us who are "no longer noobs". Now excuse me, I'm going to be late for a 12-step meeting! :-X
Logged

DLottmann

  • Guest
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2013, 11:07:36 AM »

Awesome stuff Jeff, thanks for sharing. Maybe Champ/LL has used a bit too much “hemp” before it was processed?

I’ll save you a seat.
Logged

Jeff

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 782
  • I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2013, 02:29:56 PM »

oops-- just noted a typo in my post--probably due to my haste to get to my intervention meeting-- correction: the price was $30 for 150 foot Edelrid ropes--they were pricy but not twice the cost of modern ropes. (at $30 for 15 feet they'd have been more costly than the "hemp " then popular in some climber campgrounds 8))
Logged

lucky luke

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1482
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2013, 02:38:21 PM »

No, the core of a static rope can not be made of hemp LOL. Not in 30+ years. Maybe that’s why it’s not in your FOTH bible?

I should I said natural fiber, compare with nylon and polyester. For one time you have reason I made a mistake between hemp rope and static.

Look in mountaineering freedom of the hill, fifth edition, the graphic, they use the term hemp rope and kermantle rope.

As hemp rope is as static as the new kind of material, the mistake doesn't change any thing at the theory. Sling are also made with fiber, static fiber.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 02:41:18 PM by lucky luke »
Logged

DGoguen

  • NEClimbs Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 215
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2013, 02:43:34 PM »

Are you saying you climbed "The Nose" on El Cap,  and hauled with a hemp rope?
Recently?
Sorry, it is static rope. As I red the history of rope, and static rope was hemp rope before, I use the same term
Cool.
I'll move you from the "Dangerously insane" column back over to the "wicked annoying"
Logged
Don't Climb

lucky luke

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1482
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2013, 02:46:14 PM »

; Dave, I started working on the UIAA Safety Commission in 1979  (35 years ago last May) at the meeting at the Mohonk Mountain House when it was first proposed to raise the # of UIAA falls that a rope had to pass to get the UIAA label from 3 to 5. At that time NO ONE was making a rope for ANY climbing or mountaineering purpose that contained ANY hemp.

Jeff, is it a big difference between static and hemp rope in term of safety????

If you know the sling shut effect of a static rope on a belay, are you going to use a sling to tied in on an anchor made with cam and stopper?

Every sport climber do that. It is good in sport, not in trad.

To have different point of view about safety can be helpful, writing two pages because I made a mistake between static and hemp....
Logged

DLottmann

  • Guest
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2013, 02:58:33 PM »

I should I said natural fiber, compare with nylon and polyester. For one time you have reason I made a mistake between hemp rope and static...

No. You are still wrong. There have not been ANY climbing ropes, STATIC or DYNAMIC, with "natural" fibers in them, in over 30 years. Give it up.

To have different point of view about safety can be helpful, writing two pages because I made a mistake between static and hemp....

You're going to comment on the length of Jeff's post? Are you effin' kidding me?
Logged

lucky luke

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1482
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2013, 03:48:02 PM »

No. You are still wrong. There have not been ANY climbing ropes, STATIC or DYNAMIC, with "natural" fibers in them, in over 30 years. Give it up.

I already say that I made a mistake, so...why do you continue to focus on an insignificant mistake>

Here some think better to read and understand:

Robert Lindley Murray Underhill (March 3, 1889 – May 11, 1983) was an American mountaineer best known for introducing modern Alpine style rope and belaying techniques to the U.S. climbing community in the late 1920s and early 1930s

He bring most of the theory about dynamic rope. Althougth he just describe the importance to be a good belayer.
Logged

sneoh

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1962
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2013, 05:01:25 PM »

LL - it is not an insignificant mistake in saying natural fiber (hemp or other) is used in climbing rope in recent times.  Throwing in hemp just confuses the point of static versus dynamic unnecessarily.

As for "are you going to use a sling to tied in on an anchor made with cam and stopper?",  I think this is only a serious issue if you intend on shock loading the anchor while belaying (why else would you tie into the anchor?).  Probably not a common occurrence.  Perhaps I am missing something?

How do you set up a single-pitch TR anchor where nuts and cams are necessary?  You do not use slings or anything that is "static" as part of the anchor?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 05:04:16 PM by sneoh »
Logged

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DaveR

  • NEClimbs Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 241
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2013, 08:26:04 PM »

I don't even think Strandman is old enough to have used a hemp rope. ;D

LL -
Find some good bud
go to Rumney and inhale deeply
Take a shot at a 5.6X like Flesh for Lulu (Procession at Humphry's is another route put up by the uninformed you could try ;D)
everything will be OK!

Grim Reaper still awaits LL, I recommend good bud before that one! It would have helped my nerves! ;)

Quote from LL in another post;
"I don't know the theory of falling, I climb hard on sport...the rock is bad, we must place bolt to allow uninform people who like ignorance to climb hard  to have access to a 5.6x route."
Logged

lucky luke

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1482
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2013, 12:10:11 AM »

LL - it is not an insignificant mistake in saying natural fiber (hemp or other) is used in climbing rope in recent times.  Throwing in hemp just confuses the point of static versus dynamic unnecessarily.

Robert Underhill present is theory on dynamic technique with rope between 1920 and 1930. Nylon was discover in 1935...so the theory of dynamic rope was present when hemp rope was use. The rope most run is the non-technical way of understanding the theory of Underhill.

For people who don't know the history of rope, I concede that it can be confusing and unnecessarily. And I apologized. I am alone and you are more than one person who try to discredit the heritage of the climber of the golden age: safety. I have to keep my focus and often I wrote thing that I delete because it is just insulting without any good thing for the safety of people. I am human too.

It is too late for a detail of how I anchor myself, but in general I try to have to solid point of 12KN, multidirectional (with a back up nuts). My solid point can be two bolt, two, three, four or more  cam or nuts. For example, my anchor in british where coming at canon was made with three group of three nuts and I wasn't sure that it will hold a fall. The pro was link together with a sling or a cordelette with a master point. The master point is use to tied the rope of the climber. In case the sling broke, I attach the lead rope to one solid point. In the case of British where coming, I used my rope to joined the solid point together. So, I have the maximum of safety. I was there because, the pro was good at the third pitch and, after the chimney and the undercling...it was not possible to bail. In fact, climbing was safer. It is a situation that can happen, very different than what we have in sport. I was ready for that and I am still here to talk about it. The move with the undercling after the chimney worth the climb. It is exceptional. I will never climb that route again because it is very dangerous. Bolt at the belay is a solution, but at other place, the rock can be loose (5.5 to 5.6 x)
 

 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 12:12:45 AM by lucky luke »
Logged

Jeff

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 782
  • I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2013, 07:09:24 AM »

LL , I've written NINE lines on the subject in my last "lengthy " post (not 2 pages)! When next we meet at Cathedral, I'm perfectly to discuss rope history with you , en français, si tu préfères; until that time, I'll just point out one difference between hemp ropes and static ones of a thickness appropriate for climbing-- the original historical premise for the adage "the leader must not fall" was that the HEMP ROPE would break under a shock load (see Whymper and the history of the 1st ascent of the Matterhorn) and was therefore only really good for helping a less skilled person than the leader; a modern STATIC ROPE of a thickness appropriate for climbing will BREAK the climbers BODY or SCRAMBLE internal organs in a dynamic fall; the modern concern with static materials to tie in to a belay has come about from studying some accidents where someone clipped into an anchor, climbed above it to place another piece, fell off, and either the sling broke, or a carabiner broke, causing a much longer and injurious fall ( in at least one case, fatal). During the 22 years that I was the AAC delegate to the UIAA Safety Commission (Commission de Sécurité), we studied several such cases, lab tests were done, and the reasons for the failure of the gear was determined. In the last few years, Black Diamond, Petzl and especially DMM have, in their testing labs, continued to make such tests and have made available very informative videos to help climbers and alpinists , "noobs" and mountain professionals alike, to understand the strengths and limitations of the various materials. This is helpful; continuing to "blame the bolts" and sport climbing for the lack of understanding of the forces and risks involved in climbing is not. I've now added 19 lines of text to my total contribution to this site--YOU STILL WIN-- but as 70 year old, active climber (& guide) who started climbing in 1964, who has read everything I could lay my hands on about climbing technique, safety, materials, and history since, and who volunteered my time for 22 years as the AAC delegate on the UIAA Safety Commission, I don't need you to quote me Robert Underhill's reference from Freedom of the Hills any more than I need an introduction to the Holy Bible from an annoying door to door Christian evangelist! :-*
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 07:13:53 AM by Jeff »
Logged

sneoh

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1962
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2013, 07:14:16 AM »

1930's!  Holy cow, LL.  It is like saying we all need to know how a mechanical typewriter works in order to work in a modern office just because it gave rose to the modern keyboard for a PC!

About your anchor, since you like to go into minute details, aren't the sling and/or cordelette that make up the master point static?  But we get your earlier point which is there should ideally be some "dynamism" between you and the nuts and cams when anchroing in.  Much simplier to just say this than to, yet again, invoke the difference between trad and sport.
Logged

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DGoguen

  • NEClimbs Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 215
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2013, 07:20:51 AM »

I am alone and you are more than one person who try to discredit the heritage of the climber of the golden age:
There may be a reason you are making your way down the East coast of North America exhausting climbing partners?
Step back and have a look.
Logged
Don't Climb

JBrochu

  • NEClimbs God
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1052
  • Doing God's work
Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2013, 01:18:11 PM »

Pretty sure the theory of dynamic rope is "lock the mother faaaker off the rope will stretch and absorb force."

Theory of dynamic belay is to let the hamp rope slip to absorb force so it doesn't break. Wasn't this what Underhill was involved in?






Logged
Have a quiche, now, or maybe a tort.  You deserve it!
-bristolpipe

I like to keep things simple, even if it's faaaken painful and miserable.
-Stoney Middleton

This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption.
-Friar Tuck
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.278 seconds with 22 queries.