Author Topic: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad  (Read 3259 times)

Offline frik

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2013, 03:07:39 PM »
Jeezuz Christos Brochu...

With you, Luke's got himself a "70 fish day"..... time to head for port.

Offline lucky luke

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2013, 05:50:20 PM »
In the last few years, Black Diamond, Petzl and especially DMM have, in their testing labs, continued to make such tests and have made available very informative videos to help climbers and alpinists , "noobs" and mountain professionals alike, to understand the strengths and limitations of the various materials. This is helpful; continuing to "blame the bolts" and sport climbing for the lack of understanding of the forces and risks involved in climbing is not.

I didn't blame the bolts and I didn't blame sport climbing. I note that they are not as inform as you can be and as they need to be. I said that sport is very different than trad in many point and I think that the work that some older climber did is not efficiently transmit to the next generation.

You understand immediately the situation at the anchor and you gave an example of the danger. Even if you want to protect sport climber, your knowledge emerge to a reality: there is a danger in trad with static anchor and at least one death.

Read the answer of Jbrochu. You know the theory. In a fall, the forces is always the same. It is the time to stop the fall that is important. Whit a hemp rope, the climber was stop practically immediately, he received all the energy in one shot. This will broke the rope. When you gave six feet of rope, the climber take few second to stop. So, instead of a 1000kgper square inches of pressure/ sec on his ribs, the climber received 500 kg per square inches or less /sec.

Offline DaveR

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2013, 06:01:52 PM »
LL,
Who gives a F++K! Nobody alive today has ever climbed on a hemp rope nor would want to so understanding it's properties doesn't matter.

You are like a climbing instructor I saw in a gym a few months back. The guy blabbered on for an hour and 20 minutes about the testing of biners and harnesses with a bunch of noobs who were clearly lost. At the end of the class they still couldn't belay worth shit but they were really confused.

Offline sneoh

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2013, 08:28:51 PM »
LL, you need to clean up your engineering calculations before you lose more credibility.
First of all, pressure is Newton (Force) per unit area, not kg per unit area.  Yes, it is a nit but an important one.
Secondly, deceleration forces on a human body is often expressed in "g-force" unit with 1 'g" being 9.8m per second squared, acting on each kg of body weight (g-force is normalized with respect to body weight).  I have no idea what kg per unit area per sec amounts to but it is not force.


"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline lucky luke

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2013, 02:17:46 PM »
LL, you need to clean up your engineering calculations before you lose more credibility.

whit hemp rope, it is the pressure on the rib that broke it. I use pressure here because the real term is energy and I don,t want to make a mistake that can e confuse. Formula is from F=ma where a is the terrest attraction (g), or the deceleration, d, So, the formula for the force a climber fall is mg=md. Deceleration is hard to calculate. friction on the rope, poulie effect, and rope stretch are all very improtant, I think that it is a double integral

Offline frik

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2013, 03:43:15 PM »
That's effing brilliant Luke.
Without doubt,  the Prof. Erwin Corey of this place. 

Offline lucky luke

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2013, 07:07:47 PM »
About your anchor, since you like to go into minute details, aren't the sling and/or cordelette that make up the master point static?

You are right I use static sling at the anchor to built the master point. As we do in trad, and even those who can't explain that theory use it as they can explain it in there own words by pratical experience, we calculate the point of lowest resistance. In that way, you have the stopper with a rating of 10 KN, the sling that you tied with a knot at 18KN less the knot 12kN, the rope which is rate at 10 KN. So , my sling was not my weekess point.

In sport, the fall of a climber on a static sling can generate enough energy to cut the sling. In general, they use a 22KN sling on a 24 KN bolt. for that reason, tying with a sling in sport is safe, but in some dangerous situation....it is not safe in trad.

 

DLottmann

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2013, 07:33:35 PM »
About your anchor, since you like to go into minute details, aren't the sling and/or cordelette that make up the master point static?
...we calculate the point of lowest resistance. In that way, you have the stopper with a rating of 10 KN, the sling that you tied with a knot at 18KN less the knot 12kN, the rope which is rate at 10 KN. So , my sling was not my weekess point.

In sport, the fall of a climber on a static sling can generate enough energy to cut the sling. In general, they use a 22KN sling on a 24 KN bolt. for that reason, tying with a sling in sport is safe, but in some dangerous situation....it is not safe in trad.

Ahhh.. he does like going into minute details. Especially the type that are not very helpful to new, intermediate, or expert climbers (aka everyone).

More important than all the kN talk of his first paragraph is recognizing that you attachment to the anchor should be dynamic if possible (like tying in with the rope with a clove hitch), vrs. just clipping in with a nylon sling like is still very common in both trad & sport climbing.

As for the 2nd paragraph, the force doesn’t “cut the sling”, but possibly could break or “snap" it. Not to be nit-picky but saying “22KN on a 24KN bolt” is not useable in any kind of risk management way... it is confusing at the best what your point is there...

Finally, to say “tying with a sling in sport is safe... but not in trad” is a perfect example of how you take a complex issue, add complexity to it by talking about pieces of the puzzle that are not as important (breaking strength of a small nut “10KN), then over simplifying it to “this is ok in sport but not in trad”.

Heart in the right place, but your delivery of most climbing techniques is not decipherable by your audience.

darwined

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2013, 09:14:00 PM »
Way WAY off topic but, I figured I'd throw it out there for laughs.  Enjoy

http://youtu.be/SyIJ_c5dXSE

Offline lucky luke

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2013, 11:16:19 PM »
Finally, to say “tying with a sling in sport is safe... but not in trad” is a perfect example of how you take a complex issue, add complexity to it by talking about pieces of the puzzle that are not as important (breaking strength of a small nut “10KN), then over simplifying it to “this is ok in sport but not in trad”.

Nylon and Dyneema® slings (all rated at 22 kN) in this video
the UIAA standard for fixed bolt anchors is a minimum of 22 kilonewtons
rope is 10Kn...how a bolt can broke in sport?? what is the chance that two bolt felt at the same moment??? sling is safe on sport.

With a stopper, rate 10kN on the wire...it is not the solidity of the nut which is important...but the solidity of the rock around the pro, the direction of the fall and how easily it can be pull out. We know when a pro is bad, but we never know when the pro is good (maybe after a fall. I still have my number four long first fall)

Offline sneoh

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2013, 12:07:10 AM »
You guys are way ahead of me; I am still struggling with how "the fall of a climber on a static sling can generate enough energy to cut the sling."  Trad or sport, where is the rope in all this? How would a leader/belayer fall on an anchor bolt while only connected to it with a sling?  Unless the other anchor bolt sheared .....

Yes, heart in the right place but pretty far fetched scenarios obscures the message.

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DLottmann

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2013, 08:56:59 AM »
You guys are way ahead of me; I am still struggling with how "the fall of a climber on a static sling can generate enough energy to cut the sling."  Trad or sport, where is the rope in all this? How would a leader/belayer fall on an anchor bolt while only connected to it with a sling?  Unless the other anchor bolt sheared .....

Yes, heart in the right place but pretty far fetched scenarios obscures the message.

The idea here is 1) climber attaches to an anchor with a nylon sling, which for argument's sake is considered static in nature... 2) The climber then moves above his attachment for some reason, say, to adjust something higher in the anchor then 3) slips, loading the slack sling.

In theory a 4 foot fall on a 2 foot nylon sling would generate enough to injure the climber, and in a worst case scenario potentially break the sling.

This is good theory, as Lucky Luke has pointed out. The take home points;

1) When possible attach to the anchor with something more dynamic than a sling (climbing rope works wonders here)

2) If you do attach with a sling, like possibly preparing to rappel, be mindful not to climb above your attachment or generate any slack in your attachment.

Memorizing Kn's might help a very few people (1), but this is the concern LL was addressing.

Offline JakeDatc

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2013, 09:16:29 AM »
Yep,  sport i use a dyneema sling w/ locker   and only hang on it,  no need to move around while cleaning an anchor that takes 30 seconds.     trad i clove in with the rope because there is more chance i'll be moving around at an anchor, swapping leads, etc. 

bouldering i don't use any slings....
"I really don't know who act like if he have the true." -Champoing

DLottmann

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #88 on: November 06, 2013, 09:47:55 AM »
Yep,  sport i use a dyneema sling w/ locker   and only hang on it,  no need to move around while cleaning an anchor that takes 30 seconds.     trad i clove in with the rope because there is more chance i'll be moving around at an anchor, swapping leads, etc. 

bouldering i don't use any slings....

How's are you attaching the dyneema to the harness?

Offline JakeDatc

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Re: three reasons to not bouldering before doing trad
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2013, 10:12:30 AM »
I girth it to my belay loop each time.   i don't subscribe to sling thong action.     
"I really don't know who act like if he have the true." -Champoing