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Author Topic: Know The Ropes- Lowering  (Read 987 times)

Jeff

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2013, 09:40:39 AM »

A sad issue.. Paul Duval's death involved middle marks ???? Eric ?

That was the story I heard.

As did I. However as a mentor to so many climbers, I believe Paul would have blamed human error (which makes his passing no less sad)! RIP
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strandman

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2013, 09:49:40 AM »

Agreed

maybe petzl should be blamed for making shitty ropes ?
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sneoh

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2013, 10:55:40 AM »

Recently, a kid told me his Petzl rope showed core after doing only 12 pitches of sport routes.  The bad spot was quite far from either of the rope.  No sharp edges or worn biners involved apparaently.
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OldEric

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2013, 11:31:55 AM »

Petzle is directly responsible for every person they killed and injured with that terrible system. No different than makeing a car with the gas peddal where the brake is supposed to be.

Sorry but gotta disagree here.

If you didn't notice you only pulled 5 meters of rope through the anchor, or 55 meters, AND didn't knot your ends, AND didn't look for the ends of the rope while rappelling, that is plain NOT PAYING ATTENTION. Pilot error, not equipment failure.

Blaming end marks is a knee jerk victim protecting response IMO.

However they did the responsible thing by stopping production since obviously people were not paying enough attention to what they were doing.

It's prety easy when doing the post-mortem of any accident to conclude that it wouldn't have happened "if the victim had been paying attention" - chalk it up to pilot error (and infer that "I am better then that and it won't happen to me").  But accidents do happen and human nature is what it is.  Throw in the usual - cold, wet, dark, tired factors.  It's ironic that the 5 and 10m end markings were a response to just another variation on the same basic "off the end of the rope" accident. 
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DLottmann

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2013, 11:41:22 AM »

It's prety easy when doing the post-mortem of any accident to conclude that it wouldn't have happened "if the victim had been paying attention" - chalk it up to pilot error (and infer that "I am better then that and it won't happen to me").  But accidents do happen and human nature is what it is.  Throw in the usual - cold, wet, dark, tired factors.  It's ironic that the 5 and 10m end markings were a response to just another variation on the same basic "off the end of the rope" accident.

I agree with all of it, except what was inferred. I am not "better than that". I am extremely paranoid of making a mistake because I recognize it happens to much more experienced climbers than myself. It is ironic the end markings were meant to help prevent an accident they contributed to.

It is true though isn't it? If the victim was paying attention they would have caught there mistake before it became fatal. There are multiple stages of setting up a rappel and many "best practices" commonly used to prevent this.

I just think some people assign more than reasonable responsibility on Petzl for this. Like the lawsuit over Tiko right now. Sue the quick draw manufacture? Gear shop? Then again if these dog-bones didn't come with instructions... ahh getting off topic....
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Jeff

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2013, 11:47:47 AM »

FWIW, I've used a 9.8 Petzl Nomad rope for trad for the past 3 years in CT, NY, WY and NH (50+days) and it shows no unusual wear. How many pitches of sport did "the kid" fall off of? How many falls on the same general area of the rope? Without a rope record it's all anecdotal. My other ropes are a Bluewater 9.7 bi-color and a Sterling 9.8 with comparable numbers of days in use over the same periods ( I keep accurate rope records--pitches, rappels, falls --very few of those), and they show comparable wear.
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sneoh

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2013, 11:51:05 AM »

We agreed that it is probably a one-off quality control problem.
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2013, 06:47:53 PM »

Dave,  I have to very strongly dissagree. There have been only 2 accidents with the quick draws despite decades of use with rubber thingys on the biners. both involving kids and or females.  Despite a fairly short service life there were quite a few accidents with the end marks and many of those accidents were experienced adults. The fact that at least one manufacturer refused to join the trend with safty concerns in mind and that Petzle discontinued it is also telling. It was a terrible idea and it got people killed. No excuses.  The  real human error in those accidents was the guy who  came up with the idea of putting 3 marks on the rope instead of one. Watch this! Gonna mess some folks up with this one. Most of the people hurt were older climbers who had decades of experience with ropes only marked in the middle. It was a set up and it worked.
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lucky luke

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2013, 07:19:47 PM »

It's prety easy when doing the post-mortem of any accident to conclude that it wouldn't have happened "if the victim had been paying attention" - chalk it up to pilot error (and infer that "I am better then that and it won't happen to me").  But accidents do happen and human nature is what it is.

it is well know old eric. In the text of McCammon 2002, the author explain that: "The familiarity heuristic is the tendency to believe that our behavior is correct to the extent that we will have done it before" (McCammon, 2002). Probabaly that he did the rapp many time and he tought that he was correct because he rapted many time and made a mistake.

Contrary at Dman, who accused the person to be careless, I suggest that people understand what McCammon explain and understand what they said.

It happen to every of us. We saw the hold on the right, we concentrate to place the right hand under the hold and grab the hold with the left...we do the move and we use the right hand instead of the left. some time, the brain do the contrary of what we want to do consciently.

Those kind of accident is not a lack of knowledge or that the person don't pay attention. It is a way that our brain work and we have to understand it to be safer.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 11:09:24 PM by lucky luke »
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Pete Jackson

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2013, 07:38:26 PM »

The  real human error in those accidents was the guy who  came up with the idea of putting 3 marks on the rope instead of one.

Are we talking about 3 black stripes on the rope? Or are you talking about the ropes that have woven in "rumble strips" in the sheath near the ends? Having used neither setup, I can't really offer much insight, but I am following along with interest.
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JakeDatc

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2013, 07:46:37 PM »

The  real human error in those accidents was the guy who  came up with the idea of putting 3 marks on the rope instead of one.

Are we talking about 3 black stripes on the rope? Or are you talking about the ropes that have woven in "rumble strips" in the sheath near the ends? Having used neither setup, I can't really offer much insight, but I am following along with interest.

For a while a few companies had a middle mark  and then  marks on either end 5-10m from the end.   they have been discontinued because a few people screwed up, only fed 10m through the anchor, rapped of the short end. 

they were put in place to try to prevent people from lowering climbers off the end of the rope  or from rapping off the end..  prevent one problem.. created another. 
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2013, 07:51:17 PM »

It did not even prevent the lowering off the ends of the rope problem.  Marks on the rope will never prevent that because when folks lower they usually look at the climber that they are lowering not the rope. They always say they never saw it, just felt it slip through their fingers.....
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Pete Jackson

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Re: Know The Ropes- Lowering
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2013, 08:01:41 PM »

Oh jeez. Yeah I can't see a black mark near the end of the rope being useful.

I've been curious about those ropes with the rough woven pattern on the sheath near the end, though. Seems like you'd feel that as you're rapping or lowering.

Of course, it's hard to miss a knot, which works with every model of rope out there!
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