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Author Topic: fear and scary route  (Read 2429 times)

lucky luke

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2013, 09:29:43 PM »

I usually don't entertain this subject because I love bouldering, sport climbing and trad equally.  After just spending 10 days in Yosemite it dawned on me that for the most part the bolted routes that I climb tend to be scarier than the trad ones.  I don't know what routes people are climbing trad on regularly but almost all the classics that I can think of in New Hampshire tend to be so well protected that they are less scary than the bolted routes.  Recompense, Intimidation, Diedre, Lichen Delight, Robinson Crusoe and dozens of other classics are so well protected that they are only as dangerous as you choose to make them, (bold by me)

First, we have to define what is scary. Some people are scary of falling and some other of failling. One will be sary of a movie. With the exception of an heart attack, there is not a lot of danger to look a scary movie.

In trad, ordinarly, when you are scare, you are already in problem. The ethic is too make sound decision to be safe first and to climb, second. You are not climbing over your helmet, but at your limit and a little bit more. As you have to define what is your limit, you will understand that for some one, climbing 5.7, it is his limit. or climbing 5.8. A beginer in trad is generally a leader of 5.7 and under for the reason that I will describe in an other discussion. So, if you begin to be scary, it is because you have a lack of knowledge in safety.

In sport, there is bolt. The bolt are place in a way, in general, that it will protect the climber from any injury. If a climber is scary on bolt, pratically top rope for some trad climber, maybe there is a problem. They are scary, but they push the move because a fall is not dangerous. After a fall, or ten, pulling the draw to came back to the hold, the climber won't be scare any more and he will be able to make the move.

recom-beast is not so easy, and accident happened in the past because bad protection (long fall), in intimidation, some climber felt in the first pitch before the diedral. In the pitch two, a block felt this summer and I think that they place a bolt to protect the move (I hope that it is at the same place than the block to keep the integrity of the climb). In diedral, fall on the offwithd in the first pitch and the pro is not really so good (placing a pro, if you don't fall on it, the pro is still questionable, not good).

"classics are so well protected that they are only as dangerous as you choose to make them" is very true. But as you climb on bolt, you can thinkt hat your pro is as good as a bolt (death of a climber in quebec, anging on a bad cam number 4). So, for a trad climber, we can not say: go try nutcracker, and come back to told me if all classic is so well protect. We can't say that a classic is R, because of the danger to kill someone. Gypsie, second and four pitch is not so well protect and it is a popular climb used as finish at recompense before.
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sneoh

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2013, 09:57:47 PM »

"In trad, ordinarly, when you are scare, you are already in problem. The ethic is too make sound decision to be safe first and to climb, second. You are not climbing over your helmet, but at your limit and a little bit more. As you have to define what is your limit, you will understand that for some one, climbing 5.7, it is his limit. or climbing 5.8. A beginer in trad is generally a leader of 5.7 and under for the reason that I will describe in an other discussion. So, if you begin to be scary, it is because you have a lack of knowledge in safety."
I think there is a little BS or oversimplication here.  Say you are a competent 5.9 trad climber, do not tell me you are not even a little scared leading 5.7R especially it is on-sight.
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JakeDatc

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2013, 10:08:17 PM »

"pratically top rope for some trad climber"

BS..  i've seen trad climbers that couldn't climb crap on bolts because they were too chicken to be above their bolt.   when you place gear every body length and sew stuff up doesn't help a damn thing when you could be well above a bolt on a sport route.

a friend of mine carried and placed so much gear on a route at the gunks that he pumped himself out and had to hang on gear. it was well within his leading range. 
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2013, 06:18:54 AM »

My personal favorite is pushing the cam up the crack so that you have a Tr for the whole lead and or or being chicken to lead the sport routs @ rumny without placeing gear in between the bolts and then getting on the internet and bashing sport climbing ;)
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steve weitzler

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2013, 07:31:59 AM »

My personal favorite is pushing the cam up the crack so that you have a Tr for the whole lead and or or being chicken to lead the sport routs @ rumny without placeing gear in between the bolts and then getting on the internet and bashing sport climbing

Tradmanclimbz brings up a good issue (not to fuel the fire). If you can place gear between bolts what is the point of bolting a route? If adaquate trad protection exists why would you bolt the route? Seems to me the better adventure would be to lead it ground up. (this ought to get the discussion going on a boring Friday morning). ;) ;) ;)
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Pete Jackson

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2013, 09:25:35 AM »

Tradmanclimbz brings up a good issue (not to fuel the fire). If you can place gear between bolts what is the point of bolting a route? If adaquate trad protection exists why would you bolt the route? Seems to me the better adventure would be to lead it ground up. (this ought to get the discussion going on a boring Friday morning). ;) ;) ;)

Not to fuel the fire? HAHA. I think we've had this argument several dozen times!  ;D

It's for the same reason that in some areas, R/X routes (eg. Stage Fright) go without bolts even when adequate trad pro doesn't exist. The short answer is, sometimes the local ethic calls for it.

There are plenty of -- or at least a few -- routes at Rumney that were formerly R/X (Metamorphosis) or were really good lines hidden under scary choss that went largely unclimbed before getting bolts (Son of Sammy, Orange Crush). Rumney is fairly different from everywhere else, though. If Son of Sammy or Methamorphosis were on Cathedral, they'd have been chopped in about 48 seconds, and rightly so. But while there was some grumbling when they got retroed at Rumney, everyone has largely agreed that they are safer, more aesthetic, and more well traveled with the bolts.


« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 12:08:40 PM by Pete Jackson »
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JakeDatc

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2013, 10:20:38 AM »

Yep,  both of those are some of my favorite warm ups for the surrounding climbs..  they had next to no climbing on them before they got bolts and get tons of ascents now.    The classic trad ones still get done (probably because they are closer to the parking lot)  Beginners route,  crack by the road and Holderness corner.     No one is stopping folks from doing the retro'd climbs on gear... I did No Money Down a few years ago.. the crux bolt is original so it doesn't change it much. 
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lucky luke

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2013, 10:42:39 AM »

"In trad, ordinarly, when you are scare, you are already in problem. [...]

 Say you are a competent 5.9 trad climber, do not tell me you are not even a little scared leading 5.7R especially it is on-sight.

When you are scare, you can't concentrate as much as when your mind is relax. Some climber can make an abstraction of the situation and just concentrate on the movement without thinking about the exposition.

I used to call it "the wall". The situation when a beginner know enough to get into trouble, but not enough to get out of the trouble safely. When a beginner hit the wall, he can understand that he should master his emotion and concentrate on technique (which is climbing at your limit) or he can bail and need more bolt to climb a 5.7x in a 5.9 route. if he stay at the wall, he is good for an accident.

Pushing your limit in sport, you are going to try the move what ever will happen as you fall  on the rope. Pushing the limit in trad, you have to learn more about how the rope management, what physic concept is important to place good pro, how can be a good second to know if your belayer do his job correctly and what you should expect from him, how strong you are and how much you can stretch...how to anticipate a move or a situation...[....] and how you can keep in control of yourself in the worse situation.

Taking a guide as a beginner is particularly important in trad as you don't know a lot. You can be scare easily and, after your partner explained you some basic situation, you can begin to put in perspective all the piece of the puzzle.

In sport, you just climb hard, but very very hard and built your strenght and flexibility to meet your goal. use a gri gri. know how to avoid bad clip, and follow a set of individual rules. But you climb very hard.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 10:44:22 AM by lucky luke »
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JakeDatc

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2013, 11:16:09 AM »

"In trad, ordinarly, when you are scare, you are already in problem. [...]

 Say you are a competent 5.9 trad climber, do not tell me you are not even a little scared leading 5.7R especially it is on-sight.

When you are scare, you can't concentrate as much as when your mind is relax. Some climber can make an abstraction of the situation and just concentrate on the movement without thinking about the exposition.

I used to call it "the wall". The situation when a beginner know enough to get into trouble, but not enough to get out of the trouble safely. When a beginner hit the wall, he can understand that he should master his emotion and concentrate on technique (which is climbing at your limit) or he can bail and need more bolt to climb a 5.7x in a 5.9 route. if he stay at the wall, he is good for an accident.

Pushing your limit in sport, you are going to try the move what ever will happen as you fall  on the rope. Pushing the limit in trad, you have to learn more about how the rope management, what physic concept is important to place good pro, how can be a good second to know if your belayer do his job correctly and what you should expect from him, how strong you are and how much you can stretch...how to anticipate a move or a situation...[....] and how you can keep in control of yourself in the worse situation.

Taking a guide as a beginner is particularly important in trad as you don't know a lot. You can be scare easily and, after your partner explained you some basic situation, you can begin to put in perspective all the piece of the puzzle.

In sport, you just climb hard, but very very hard and built your strenght and flexibility to meet your goal. use a gri gri. know how to avoid bad clip, and follow a set of individual rules. But you climb very hard.

blah blah blah has nothing to do with  sport or trad.    People are just as scared to fall on bolts when they start as they are on gear.   

you need a hobby.  try climbing sometime. 
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OldEric

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2013, 12:01:13 PM »

I did No Money Down a few years ago.. the crux bolt is original so it doesn't change it much.

Actually the crux bolt is not the original one.  It is in the same general vacinity though - so Jake's point is valid.  Well except for the inevitable knee jerk response about the lack of true committment when one goes off to do a sport route with trad gear.  That argument gets refought on a regular basis.
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Pete Jackson

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2013, 12:12:36 PM »

The classic trad ones still get done (probably because they are closer to the parking lot)  Beginners route,  crack by the road and Holderness corner.

Two weeks ago I saw someone leading beginners corner on gear, and the first pieces of gear were hanging free on the rope, having lifted out of the crack.

That route isn't scary, but I felt the fear for the leader. His belayer looked a bit anxious too!
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sneoh

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2013, 01:54:04 PM »

"When you are scare, you can't concentrate as much as when your mind is relax."
If you let the fear take over, then ye,s but most people (myself included) concentrate better when there is a little fear.
It is a fine line and everyone is a little or even quite diferent.
I guess that is exactly the point and any attempt to over-generalize or over-simplify emotions and motivation is fool's errand.

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strandman

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2013, 03:03:27 PM »

I have concentrated pretty hard in run out situations,,made hard moves and all......LL I may suggest some routes for you to get the idea ?
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JakeDatc

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2013, 04:08:10 PM »

I did No Money Down a few years ago.. the crux bolt is original so it doesn't change it much.

Actually the crux bolt is not the original one.  It is in the same general vacinity though - so Jake's point is valid.  Well except for the inevitable knee jerk response about the lack of true committment when one goes off to do a sport route with trad gear.  That argument gets refought on a regular basis.

true.. the new bolt is what.. 1' higher.  i should have said  original bolt location ;)

Lee H  does bolted routes on gear all of the time at rumney. 
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: fear and scary route
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2013, 05:05:36 PM »

My dig was that some folks who think that trad climbing is so much braver than sport climbing need to sew the bolted climbs up by placeing gear between the bolts as they are too scared to actually climb to the next bolt on the sport climb;)
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