Author Topic: Climbing Physics Puzzler  (Read 2569 times)

Offline snowleopard

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Re: Climbing Physics Puzzler
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2013, 09:52:26 PM »
Word!

Offline Bill

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Re: Climbing Physics Puzzler
« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2013, 11:52:55 PM »
Wow!  Has someone hyjacked Al's account?  Has the real Al ever used all caps for a word before such as LOOK.  Love the passion Al.  Sorry if I was apparently out of line in sketching out the scenario of an anchor that doesn't fall in within the "norm" range as stated by the OP in using the term "bomber".  With a anchor that falls with the "norm" range I do, at least if I remember to do so, I clip through the master point.  Perhaps it would have been better form to start a new thread.  My apologies.

That said, with an anchor outside to the "norm" I will not clip the master point. I will be sure my belayer is cloved in to the master point with no slack and in position to take the fall directly in line with the anchor.  The idea is that the inclusion of the additional elasticity due to an the climbing rope from the belayer's harness to the anchor and the elasticity added by the belay loop on the harness being in the system will help to reduce the force on the "marginal" anchor.  Additionally it eliminates the multiplier effect of the pulley on the anchor created by clipping through the master point. 

Properly positioned catching a fall directly on the belay, although it may drive you to your knees, should be reasonably doable.  For the record,  I nor any belayer of mine has caught such a fall. So no, I have not yet done the experiment.  Maybe I am fooling myself and being a little anal-retentive about the entire thing but it does, at least for me, eliminate a bit of the anxiety generated by climbing above a marginal anchor prior to placing and clipping the first solid piece.

Offline Admin Al

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Re: Climbing Physics Puzzler
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2013, 09:55:10 AM »
here's my thought about clipping the power point while the leader gets to their 1st piece:

1) anything is better than nothing

2) I'm right handed. if I'm belaying off my harness and the fall on my left side I MAY be able to hold the fall. if they fall to my right I almost certainly will not be able to hold the fall as the belay device will be providing no friction at all.

3) yes, there is a possibility of the anchor blowing. however, I think that if it is a solid redundant anchor it's not as likely to fail as it is for me to not be able to hold the fall if the leader falls on my right.

4) NOTE: once the leader gets in their 1st piece off the belay, or second if the 1st isn't great, I remove their draw from the power point.
 
this is more of a worry for me on rock, where protection possibilities are often limited, than on ice where hopefully the leader will be able to get in a piece quickly. after all, on ice, if you have solid enough ice for a good anchor, you should be able to place a solid screw right off the anchor.

as always YMMV...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 05:39:33 PM by Admin Al »
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Offline Pete Jackson

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Re: Climbing Physics Puzzler
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2013, 10:35:37 AM »
here's my thought about clipping the power point while the leader gets to their 1st piece:

1) anything is better than nothing

+1. Once the "jesus nut" is in place, do you un-clip the master point or leave it in? In terms of the physics, getting that factor 2 out of the equation as soon as possible strikes me as wise.
We came to climb, not to whine.

Offline Admin Al

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Re: Climbing Physics Puzzler
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2013, 05:37:45 PM »
+1. Once the "jesus nut" is in place, do you un-clip the master point or leave it in? In terms of the physics, getting that factor 2 out of the equation as soon as possible strikes me as wise.

yes I do, thnX. I edited my post to reflect that point.
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Offline strandman

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Re: Climbing Physics Puzzler
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2013, 09:19:29 PM »
Once anyone holds anything near a F2 fall,  they won't let it happen again..trust me

Offline Admin Al

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Re: Climbing Physics Puzzler
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2013, 10:31:35 PM »
Once anyone holds anything near a F2 fall,  they won't let it happen again..trust me

+
Al Hospers
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Offline sneoh

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Re: Climbing Physics Puzzler
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2013, 10:12:22 AM »
Once anyone holds anything near a F2 fall,  they won't let it happen again..trust me
I can imagine.  I have no desire to have this happen to me; leader or belayer!!

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline lucky luke

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Re: Climbing Physics Puzzler
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2013, 01:20:50 AM »
Once the "jesus nut" is in place, do you un-clip the master point or leave it in? In terms of the physics, getting that factor 2 out of the equation as soon as possible strikes me as wise.

If the jesus not pop out!!!