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Author Topic: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"  (Read 156 times)

fuckstick

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In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« on: June 28, 2004, 08:23:43 AM »

Hey,

Al wrote:

Quote
Here's A Cool Tip:
When I was out climbing with IMCS guide Brad White recently, I set up an anchor with a cordelette around a tree. I'd been mostly using the old girth-hitch for this kind of thing it for years, but Brad showed me an AMGA-approved way to do it that's definitely a lot better. Here are the steps:

1 - Put the cordelette around the tree with the knot at the back.
2 - Tie an overhand in the the cordelette and cinch it against the tree, making sure to even the two ends of the cordelette.
3 - In the middle of the remaining 2 loops, tie a overhand figure eight knot.
4 - Clip into both loops.

That's it... Nice, easy, quick and totally bomber. A picture tells a thousand words , enjoy.

Have fun and climb safe,



Picture here:  http://neclimbs.com/wmr_pix/20040624/anchor.jpg

So first off, I would think that putting knots into the cordalette only makes for headaches down the road.  Hard to untie etc.  I always use a girth hitch but here is my question -
Which is stronger - a girth hitch, an overhand knot, or a figure 8?  

Second, the tree would probably receive less stress with method knot method?  But is it really enough of a differance?

Last,  is this just one approved method the AMGA uses or is THE method they teach guides?  

If so, what are the advantages I am missing?

------------------------------------------------

Not questioning you a bit AL.  Just thought I might try to bring a useful discussion to the table after my Marklar posting.

cheers

« Last Edit: June 28, 2004, 08:25:42 AM by fuckstick »
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DH

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Re: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2004, 09:28:07 AM »

I still could not see the overhand part of the knot because the cordalette is camoflage in the picture, good for leaver slings, bad for learning.  Thanks for the tip though.
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2004, 09:44:55 AM »

seems like just makeing a no brainermove more complicated??
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DWarriner

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Re: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2004, 09:48:39 AM »

Figure-8 is the strongest, followed by overhand, followed by girth-hitch.

Ropes are weakened when you bend them.  The more you bend them, the weaker they are.  A figure-8 bends the rope less than an overhand, which bends the rope less than a girth hitch.  

Additionally with a girth hitch, the doubling back of the cord effectively makes it a 2-1 pulley - which doubles the force on the cord (minus frictional forces).

Another con against the girth is that it is not redundant.

With that said, I don't particularly care for the rig depicted in the picture as the helper knot against the tree is roughly perpendicular to the direction of the pull.   This  weakens the system and the knot doesn't really add anything to it.  Kind of like when you set up an anchor with 2 pieces far apart.  This effect would be lessened if the helper knot was further from the tree.  I personally, skip this knot, and just use a figure-8.  Quicker, stronger, redundant.  I will occasionally use girth hitches when I need some extra distance out of my cordelette.
   
Then again cordelette are pretty over designed and I don't think any of these scenarios are likely to fail.

-David
« Last Edit: June 28, 2004, 09:50:27 AM by DWarriner »
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cklein

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Re: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2004, 10:09:31 AM »

I think an advantage would be that it might help the cord from sliding down to the base of the tree.  
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om

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Re: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2004, 10:15:06 AM »

I don't know what are the benefits of the rig in question vs what DWarriner described, but i can speak of the girth hitch.

I've been in a potentially dangerous situation where tree was hitched by the leader who was climbing a big group and was not switching leads. People who came up to the ledge where unaware of the fact that the sling was girth hitched and just clipped into the stand that was going around the tree (the strand was not loaded). The leader was about to unclip and go without realizing that he would take everyone off by doing that. Obviously, easily avoidable mistake, but still can happen...
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Derek Doucet

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Re: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2004, 10:43:28 AM »

"I think an advantage would be that it might help the cord from sliding down to the base of the tree. "

Yup, and while it has some disadvantages, this system does have it's place:

*It's useful for tying off large objects when there's a chance your tie-off could creep off. Chickenheads and horns are the obvious example, and where I've most commonly used this technique.

*When belaying directly off the anchor: In such cases, provided the tree is bomber, it's nice to have your power-point up high. It makes using a Reverso or munter much, much easier. Obviously the tree chosen needs to be beyond question.

*In the winter when your cordalette sliding down the tree effectively grinds it into the snowpack making it difficult to get at and monitor.

-Nubbler
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2004, 11:36:49 AM »

regardless of what system you use there is no preventing stupid people from doing stupid things.  I like the redundancy of a figure8.
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DLottmann

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Re: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2004, 12:58:10 PM »

There's a new hitch I heard people calling the "Reid Hitch", supposedly from Al Reid a local guide.  Take your looped cordelette around your tree, tie and overhand, and pull one of the loops from the overhand through the other loop, and sinch it tight in the direction of pull.  Hope that description is good enough.  Works great at keeping the cord from sliding up or down the tree, but is not as redundent as using the figure 8.  There is some great information on this link below about some of these knots!

http://www.chauvinguides.com/Anchoring.PDF
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jclimbs

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Re: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2004, 02:41:28 PM »

Yes, the overhand knot will add the functionality of keeping the cord from sliding up or down the tree. I recently attended a Top Rope course which often uses this type of anchoring on trees at the top of cliffs for groups. I guess like everything else there are pros and cons.
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Admin Al

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Re: In response to Al's, "Cool Tip"
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2004, 03:11:43 PM »

the girth hitch is a problem on 2 levels:

1 - not redundant

2 - it puts a 2 to 1 pully into the system on the tree and the cordelette. definitely not a good thing.

as pointed out the overhand keeps the cordelette from slipping down the tree.

the other overhand or figure 8 gives you 2 other things:

1 - a nice "shelf" to belay from

2 - isolates the 2 strands of the cordelette from each other to that they become redundent

NOTE - if you use the "shelf" you should make sure that the second doesn't clip in there. if they do then you need to be sure not to take out your biner, otherwise the "shelf" knot could creep & come off the end.

I just think that this is a very useful tool. one of many...

Al
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