Author Topic: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad  (Read 1599 times)

Offline lucky luke

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two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« on: November 25, 2013, 02:42:28 PM »
I don't say don't do sport, I say do trad before sport if you want to be a trad climber.

first reason: In trad falling can be dangerous specially if the first pro pull out. Knowing how to fall on your feet will minimize the kind of injury that you will have. Falling in your back and you can be paralyze for the rest of your life. So, climbing on your feet and knowing how to place your body to jump or sleep safely is very important. Of course, you will feel more confident if you climb 5.9 before you do your first 5.6 lead in trad and, fortunately, the risk of falling is very low on that kind of route. But it is when you have to decide to do a move where there is a danger that you will learn all the process of being safe. After that, you will understand the progression: using your hips to protect vital part of the body, looking for a move using three point of contact before two points, understanding the difference between intermediate and advance move, using your power when one hold is missing, using your body in equilibrium as a single point of contact. I most say that sport climber learn by imitation of other and will learn technique adapt to a bolt protection situation. In general, sport climber don't make the distinction of being in control of his safety and using a bad technique for the problem. They will need bolt

second reason: a little bit technical, When you climb, you need energy. It is like someone who run. If you jog, you will use aerobic energy and will be able to perform for hours. If you played soccer, you will run faster and stop and go. There is a chance that you will be out of breath. Finally, in a 100 meter race, you will use a very fast kind of energy.  Those energy are call aerobic, anaerobic lactique and creatine phosphatase. When you climb on sport, you will use the second and third one mostly. In a trad route of 8 pitches, you will use more aerobic energy and in some places creatine  to climb a short hard section and anaerobic to look where you are going for the next hold. any other way to explain it?

Offline DaveR

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2013, 02:51:09 PM »
Here we go again! Do you ever climb or just babble about worthless shit? :P

Offline JBeta

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2013, 03:03:17 PM »
Luke, I appreciate your desire to back up your claim with reasons, but I think your reasons are flawed.

Reason 1: Everything I've learned about falling, I've learned while sport climbing. I've seen more trad climbers fall awkwardly than I've seen sport climbers fall awkwardly. In trad climbing, the "leader never falls" mentality is still alive and well, and when these leaders end up falling, as they inevitably do, the fall is often tense, stressful, and more dangerous than it needs to be. Sport climbing has taught me to make peace with the fall. Bouldering has taught me to fall with skill.

Reason 2: I'm a runner, and I know all about aerobic vs anaerobic. I've used more aerobic muscles during a sport climb than I ever have during trad climbing.  Have you ever sport climbed? Sure, some sport climbs are anaerobic, but some sport climbs are aerobic testpieces. Places like Rifle, Maple, and the Red have no really hard moves (that's debatable, I know), but it's the endurance requirements that make the climbs hard.

Sport climbing has made me more comfortable on the rock, and it has helped my trad climbing. In fact, every higher-end trad climber has put in mileage on sport climbs.


Offline strandman

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2013, 03:14:22 PM »
Complete bullshit.... you can try to explain this all you want, but it will never work


Offline JBeta

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2013, 03:16:15 PM »
Complete bullshit.... you can try to explain this all you want, but it will never work

Agreed...but I can't help myself from responding.

Offline strandman

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2013, 03:45:03 PM »
Just like a fucking train wreck.....

I'm going to ask my buddy Bob how he can possibly sport climb after learning how to climb wide up to 5.13   :-*

I'm betting it's 'cause he's good ?

Offline Pete Jackson

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2013, 05:27:25 PM »
Wait. Didn't we already have a 9 page thread on this exact same topic? Or was it trad vs. bouldering?

We came to climb, not to whine.

Offline goodrockrich

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Re: Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2013, 05:44:44 PM »
Wait. Didn't we already have a 9 page thread on this exact same topic? Or was it trad vs. bouldering?
For a second there I thought it was the same thread!

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DLottmann

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2013, 06:10:59 PM »
+1 JBeta...

It’s been said before... many times...

You can enter climbing from just about any “specialization” and go on to do great things.

Saying “You should not Sport Climb before Trad Climb” is FUBAR.

And I’ve trad climbed since day 1, and to this day have trad or ice climbed 95% of my climbing days (a few thousand in all).

I know if I mixed in more sport climbing in my earlier years I would be a better climber today, and my long range plans include more sport climbing for that reason...

Offline goodrockrich

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2013, 07:39:22 PM »
I would like to point out that you should never eat right before you trad climb.  Always wait an hour or you could get a cramp! ::)

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Offline sneoh

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2013, 08:08:12 PM »
Yeah, Luke, your second reason is all bunk, man.  Sorry.  I can show you sport climbs that WILL work you aerobically.  Besides, plenty of sport only climbers also cross train in aerobic intensive sports. Do not be so narrow-minded and rule things out just because you do not do them.

Your 1st reason has some grains of truth. There is no denying of that.  But, as usual, you take a grain of truth and extrapolate the shit out of it leading you to the wrong general conclusion.

I started in trad (sport climbing had not really reached NE in earnest then) but plenty of folks seem to have done just fine starting in sport and expanding into trad and beyond.  Again, I just do not get this exclusivity thing that you harp on all the time.

DMan,any time you want to plan on a sport climbing day or two at Rumney and the same for me at South Buttress or Cathedral or Sundown in return, that would be fun. It is all good.  Mix it up, keep it interesting!



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Offline lucky luke

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2013, 11:53:01 PM »
Luke, I appreciate your desire to back up your claim with reasons, but I think your reasons are flawed.

[...] I've seen more trad climbers fall awkwardly than I've seen sport climbers fall awkwardly. In trad climbing, the "leader never falls" mentality is still alive and well, and when these leaders end up falling, as they inevitably do, the fall is often tense, stressful, and more dangerous than it needs to be. [...]

Reason 2: I'm a runner, and I know all about aerobic vs anaerobic.

Imperfection? discussion is a good way to find imperfection in trad and to be a better climber after.

Climber do trad climbing since 1950. Some mortality occur, but more in alpine zone than in cliff. If you read accident in north american mountaineering, you will see that injury in a fall is not as important as some other think. I didn't look if, recently, sport climber, climbing with gear, have more pro pulling out and zipper effect and.... But it is what I am seeing on the cliff. You said that the fall is more dangerous that it needs to be...and you have SA who felt about 100 feet without injury. It is impossible to climb without fall. In fact, you didn't see many fall of old trad climber because it happened in the wild (my partner fell 35 feet)...but you see safe fall on bolt all the time from sport, maybe your judgment is biase by the fact that you learned sport climbing and you didn't develop the reflex of a trad climber that I describe by the position of his feet, hips and hands. I think that it is a problem for the beginer who want to climb trad.

Just to know where we are, can you describe the anaerobic reaction?

Offline JBeta

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2013, 07:13:31 AM »

but you see safe fall on bolt all the time from sport, maybe your judgment is biase by the fact that you learned sport climbing and you didn't develop the reflex of a trad climber that I describe by the position of his feet, hips and hands.

I'm the biased one? Seriously?

Whatevs dude.

Offline lucky luke

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2013, 10:15:24 AM »

but you see safe fall on bolt all the time from sport, maybe your judgment is biase by the fact that you learned sport climbing and you didn't develop the reflex of a trad climber that I describe by the position of his feet, hips and hands.
I'm the biased one? Seriously?

If you make a comparaison of 100 fall on trad take by trad climber like Sa Pappy jeff and some other and 100 fall of sport climber on bolt....maybe you will understand that the difference is not so high between the two group of climber.

If you take 100 sport climber who climb on bolt and 100 sport climber who climb with nuts and cams....maybe you will understand the reason why I want to make the distinction between sport and trad.

When sport climbing begin, they were treat as nothing by the trad climber because they was not able to climb in remote area. Pioneer of sport climber had a rude beginning before the community accept that good climber emerge from sport climbing. As climbing in remote area with or without bolt is more dangerous than climbing in sport area, the sport climbing gain in popularity. Today, there is more sport climber than trad climbing. Remote area, natural feature, still exist and trad climbing is still an ethic. But now sport climber have to stop to fight to gain his place as a real sport. There is athlete in sport who practice the higher level of technique. Stop the war against trad. We made a mistake by denigrating sport, but we have to keep the best of all ethic for the next generation.

You kill the sport in two way: first people don't like so much bolt and practically all sport climber who climb 5.11 in a gym have problem in 5.7 outside, if it is not an accident. At each accident, the popularity of the sport diminish. Second, many people don't like to struggle on a pinch of rock for hours to gain ten feet. They prefer to move slowly from one anchor to the other on easy ground, or more precisely, at there level of difficulty to be safe and enjoy the trip on the mountain more like a hike than like a fight against the wall. 

Offline Pete Jackson

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Re: two reasons to not sport climb before doing trad
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2013, 11:20:21 AM »
[SNIP] Edited out some stuff since this one is in the newbie forum.

I don't say don't do sport, I say do trad before sport if you want to be a trad climber.

I understand and accept your point of view on this, even though I disagree with you.

To wit: you have not taken in to account a key tenant of modern pedagogy. Everyone has a different learning style. What works for you may not work for me.
  • Some need to learn basic movement first.
  • Some are nervous types and need to learn to place pro first.
  • Some are nervous types and will never use any pro but a bolt.
  • Some are weak and need to get stronger before anything else happens.
  • Some have Outdoor Attention Deficit Disorder and need to experience new stuff regularly to keep learning.
  • Some need to find inspiration, and therefore need to try everything out first to find their niche.
  • Some learn by doing, some by hearing, some by reading, others by imagining.

There is no universal prescription. You cannot control the learning of others. This is especially true of climbers, who are a rebellious sort.

This has all been "asked and answered". Can we consider the matter closed?

I have no doubt that you're a nice guy. I have no doubt that you are talented and competent. Everything I have heard about you as a human being (as opposed to your internet persona) supports that. So help me understand: why beat this dead horse?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 12:20:03 PM by Pete Jackson »
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