Author Topic: Ethics VS Style  (Read 3202 times)

Offline Pete Jackson

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2013, 10:08:41 AM »
Well said Pete. I have been staying out of dissing LL as I respect his trad ability even though he is very narrow minded. The norms are what differentiates the ethics and style,is correctly put.
 Jim the guy who uses a personal anchor system (PAS) it is my style man.

Using a PAS because it's your style. PERFECT. It's not my style, but I would never say you are cheating by using one. Nor would I ridicule you, or aim to remove your FAs from the guidebooks because you used a PAS.

Now, if New England adopted an "all routes must be ascended without the use of a PAS" norm, it would be different. And visiting climbers from the New or RRG would be perplexed, but obligated to leave the PAS in their pack. And, we'd be "cramping their style" with our new rule.

Strawman anyone?
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Offline JBrochu

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2013, 11:18:12 AM »

Sorting what is good fro what is bad from a post make good discussion. A bad student in a class just show how he can disturb other people.

You have trad trolling mentillliy wihle I hav spurt troll new wave ethuos...


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Offline lucky luke

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2013, 12:28:12 PM »
3. Trad climbing builds certain skills, and the climber who has those skills is more equipped to make correct decisions in future  situations because they are a good climber.

I will change the end of that phrases because good sport climber is better than a good trad climber in a sport route.

if you read the text on Heuristic clue: "The familiarity heuristic is the tendency to believe that our behavior is correct to the extent that we will have done it before (McCammon, 2002).  (http://www.snowpit.com/articles/traps%20reprint.pdf). You will be able to describe some short cut that the brain learned when a climber begin to climb.

In sport, you learn that it is safe: clip the bolt and you are out of danger

In trad, we learn that it is dangerous: protect yourself. In doing that, a long process happen. what if I fall, what happen if I hit the ledge, what can I do to avoid hitting the ledge. All those question need time to learn and it is why a trad climber will climb at lower grade than a sport climber after two years.

The process of learning familiarity heuristic is longer and we are more adapt to remote area, where many new people on climbing want to go. It should be learn before doing sport or bouldering to be a real reflex.

3. Trad climbing builds certain skills, and the climber who has those skills is more equipped to make correct decisions in future  situations where the risk of accident need more than just clipping a bolt



 

Offline lucky luke

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2013, 12:36:45 PM »
I said quite the opposite. Setting aside the fact that you are saying "ethics" to mean the thing that I refer to as "norms", let's examine my argument again.

War of definition, here. Ethics are describe by norms. Trad ethic is bottom up. We can do a plan of the two ethics and compare the norms for each other. bottom up and retro bolting is at the opposite. A trad climber who do few move of aid to place a fix pin is it a sport or trad climber? this is the question of ethic. One move of aid, and you lost the first free ascent for sure. This is question of ethic.

As you will try to place me in one of those situation: consequentialists and deontologists. I always said in my post that I talk to prevent accident. That many sport climber use familiarity clues that they think to be the best and some times they are not adapt to the situation. Going for it (sticking on it), when the risk of injure your back is 70 % and your chance of doing the move is 20% is not wise in trad, but falling on a bolt in sport reduce the risk to injure your back. So going for it, in trad, is not a good solution.

Offline Pete Jackson

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2013, 12:57:13 PM »
3. Trad climbing builds certain skills, and the climber who has those skills is more equipped to make correct decisions in future  situations where the risk of accident need more than just clipping a bolt

Now we are getting somewhere. That's virtue ethics. So, you are saying that by behaving in a certain way (virtuously) you become a good person (a safe climber). I have no arguments with this conclusion. I personally do not subscribe to the view that we should always try to avoid accidents. While it may be true for me, it is not true for those who push the sport forward and climb remote peaks in alpine style. So I do not accept it as a norm in all cases. This will be different for different people.

War of definition, here. Ethics are describe by norms. Trad ethic is bottom up.

Again, we agree on the concept if not the terminology. Trad climbers climb bottom up. That is true. One move of aid negates a FFA, that is also true. We're cool. We agree. Where I have a problem with your conclusions is where you turn that into a prescriptive norm for other people to follow.  See below.

Going for it (sticking on it), when the risk of injure your back is 70 % and your chance of doing the move is 20% is not wise in trad, but falling on a bolt in sport reduce the risk to injure your back. So going for it, in trad, is not a good solution.

I agree that it is very risky given those odds. However, I would caution you against saying that people should or should not accept those risks. That is something we explicitly leave up to the individual in climbing.

And once we begin to proscribe behavior because it does not meet our personal risk tolerance, we snuff out the flame of exploration. It is risky to try to solo the Matterhorn in under two hours. More risky than I accept. Ueli Steck is not immoral for doing so. He's just more ballsy, skilled, and better prepared. He is a superior athlete to me. I accept that.




 
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Offline lucky luke

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2013, 12:40:34 AM »
3. Trad climbing builds certain skills, and the climber who has those skills is more equipped to make correct decisions in future  situations where the risk of accident need more than just clipping a bolt

Now we are getting somewhere. That's virtue ethics. So, you are saying that by behaving in a certain way (virtuously) you become a good person (a safe climber). I have no arguments with this conclusion.

You are really a sport climber. Changing the reality to meet your ego.

I am saying:  by learning certain skills people can become trad climber...by learning certain skill people can become sport climber. There is no category in that because a person can be consequentialist  and see the difference between trad and sport, be virtue ethic and see the difference between sport and trad and be deontologist and see the difference between sport and trad.

You are lying when you say that there is no difference between sport and trad and some person are in danger because they thing that in learning sport they can have certain skills that sport climber don't learn because they don't need it.

Offline Pete Jackson

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2013, 06:52:14 AM »
You are really a sport climber. Changing the reality to meet your ego.

Is that name-calling, Luke? It's not insulting to me if you want to call me a sport climber. But it's not accurate. I spent the first 20 years of my climbing career climbing at Seneca, where drilling bolts used to get you tarred and feathered in the town square.

I always thought the Seneca no-bolt rules was a narrow and unfortunate view, but I accepted it as the local norm and didn't try to tell people what to do based on my own values (which are different).

I am saying:  by learning certain skills people can become trad climber...by learning certain skill people can become sport climber. There is no category in that because a person can be consequentialist  and see the difference between trad and sport, be virtue ethic and see the difference between sport and trad and be deontologist and see the difference between sport and trad.

If this is truly your point, then we can stop arguing. So long as you can stop all of the "don't do X if you want to be a trad climber because that is sport mentality" bullshit, we don't disagree that climbing in traditional style takes different skills than climbing a sport route.

You are lying when you say that there is no difference between sport and trad and some person are in danger because they thing that in learning sport they can have certain skills that sport climber don't learn because they don't need it.

I never said any of those things. Now I see why everyone calls you a troll. Please, stick to the facts and try to avoid name calling, eh?

If you'll excuse me, I have to get out my aid gear and go clean some sport routes. :P
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Offline sneoh

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2013, 09:24:02 AM »
Good for you Pete and thank you for contributing to the community by doing more than just being narrow-minded on the interweb, like someone we know here.

Champ, I hope you will soon accept that people can learn overlapping skill sets and be good in more than one style of climbing.  If you fear that all beginners will turn into merely gym-rats and bolt-clipping yuppies, I am pretty sure you are incorrect.  I see alot of youngsters gravitating towards trad, taking time to learn it well, appreciating its uniqueness but still sport-climb or boulder, train in the gym with the goal of becoming more well-rounded climbers.  You can learn a thing or two from them.

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline tinker

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2013, 07:49:36 PM »
^+1.000.000.

Offline lucky luke

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2013, 12:56:58 AM »
I am saying:  by learning certain skills people can become trad climber...by learning certain skill people can become sport climber.[...]

If this is truly your point, then we can stop arguing. So long as you can stop all of the "don't do X if you want to be a trad climber because that is sport mentality" bullshit, we don't disagree that climbing in traditional style takes different skills than climbing a sport route. (bolt write by me)

we disagree that to learn different skills, we most learn differently.

I don't know you, but I have to be carefull not to be trap in a war of categories to know if I am virtue, consequentalism or deontologist. At work I am more deontologist on what must be done, for accident I am more consequentalism as I want to prevent accident by education and the distinction between trad and sport is one of that important learning and for relation with other people I am more virtue ethic.

We, as trad climber, are regularly insult by sport climber, our life are in danger by people who dont learn trad skill.  When we discuss honestly of familiarity heuristic, you don't even read the paper and don't know the importance of learning those short cut soon when some one begin to climb trad, before learning sport and boulder. As one can understand that to learn the trad skill are different and longer than learning to clip a sling and do a move, more people will be safer on the cliff. I saw many sport climber teaching trad to beginer and one guy with who I climbed fall at the top of bird nest because he don't know how to do the move...on aid climbing??? I never saw that in 25 years of climbing. One other climber pull the rope as I was leading and I have so many example of that, just have to read accident in american mountaineering and do a comparaison between the climber in 1970 and today...you will see that sport climbing most be an activity and trad climbing an other as different as cross country and alpine ski. There is little transfer of knowledge between one to the other and a climber most learn the familiarity heuristic proper to trad if he want to trad climb.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 12:59:13 AM by lucky luke »

Offline lucky luke

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2013, 02:49:51 AM »
we disagree that to learn different skills, we most learn differently.

On the ice section, there is a subject about ice screw. One article cite alex lowe: Comments on Ice Quality by Alex Lowe
Good work on the screw research. Having read it and thought about the mechanics of pulls along the axis of the screw as opposed to loading such that shearing through the ice plays a role, it makes intuitive sense that a screw placed at a positive angle should indeed hold better, but only in ideal ice conditions - that's the big qualifier. Of course determining what constitutes "ideal ice conditions" (bolt by me)is the art and essence of placing ice gear.

In ice climbing, Chouinard discuss seven type of ice. I know that many climber don't even know that different kind of ice exist. peope know to climb grad 4 or 5 brore knowing on what they climb. Some think that a screw is as a bolt. Learning to climb and clip, instead of the basic, lead to those mistake. 

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2013, 06:59:27 AM »
Champ. You english is getting a lot better but your content is not improveing.........

Offline sneoh

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2013, 08:34:13 AM »
We, as trad climber, are regularly insult by sport climber,
Correction, you were insulted by a number of mean people, not by a WHOLE category of people.

Again, Champ, it is ridiculous over-generalization of this kind that totally diminishes your character and discredits anything meaningful you hae to say. 

As for "There is little transfer of knowledge between one to the other and a climber most learn the familiarity heuristic proper to trad if he want to trad climb.", is this your opinion or a fact?  Do you have any scientific data to back this up?  It seems contrary to observations.  I feel like it is akin to saying people cannot master different kinds of dance or unable to play multiple musical instruments really well or speak three languages fluently (a skill you do not have).

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline kenreville

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2013, 09:35:26 AM »
We, as trad climber, are regularly insult by sport climber,
Correction, you were insulted by a number of mean people, not by a WHOLE category of people.

Again, Champ, it is ridiculous over-generalization of this kind that totally diminishes your character and discredits anything meaningful you hae to say. 

As for "There is little transfer of knowledge between one to the other and a climber most learn the familiarity heuristic proper to trad if he want to trad climb.", is this your opinion or a fact?  Do you have any scientific data to back this up?  It seems contrary to observations.  I feel like it is akin to saying people cannot master different kinds of dance or unable to play multiple musical instruments really well or speak three languages fluently (a skill you do not have).

Well said sneoh.

So LL stood before ALL "sporties" and they heckled him? In all my years of climbing, I have NEVER been "insulted" by ANY other climber regarding the route I chose to climb. Even at predominately clip up areas, not ONCE has ANYONE had anything disparaging to say when I pulled out a full rack and started up a "trad" route. I think LL manufactures the disdain, OR, more likely, STARTS the insults with his own bias, then cries when he gets fired upon.   

Offline Pete Jackson

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Re: Ethics VS Style
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2013, 10:11:56 AM »
we disagree that to learn different skills, we most learn differently.

Do we?

I don't know you, but I have to be carefull not to be trap in a war of categories to know if I am virtue, consequentalism or deontologist.
I only chose to categorize your ethical framework so that I might better understand your point of view. If it make your feel trapped or threatened, or it it detracts from the issue at hand, we can forget about it. None of those ethical frameworks are wrong or better than the other.

The reason I brought it up is because it is often hard to understand the motivations behind the points you make. So I chose one method for understanding them.

I would urge you to extend others the same courtesy.

When we discuss honestly of familiarity heuristic, you don't even read the paper and don't know the importance of learning those short cut soon when some one begin to climb trad, before learning sport and boulder.

Again, are you sure? Just because I read the same material and draw different conclusions, you think I didn't read the paper? Quite the contrary on both points above: I simply failed to be convinced by the argument you presented.

There is little transfer of knowledge between one to the other and a climber most learn the familiarity heuristic proper to trad if he want to trad climb.

OK. What about people who don't want to learn to trad climb? Do you still judge them as harshly?
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