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Author Topic: teathers  (Read 1476 times)

tradmanclimbz

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Re: teathers
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2013, 11:13:47 PM »

Also witnessed a party bailing off of a multi pitch climb today with a lonely looking nomic stuck in the crusty snow @ the base. had this been a real powder day it could have been by by nomic and not just a bail......
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: teathers
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2014, 09:25:58 PM »

Lovin the BD spinners w/ my custom mod. 25or so years of climbing with leashes I never dropped a tool. dropped 2 in the leashless era. feel much better now that I have them tied to me. We have been @ The Lake 3 times this year and seen two dropped tools.  Today a viper would have hit Isa had she not dodged it. bounced off the ice 18in from her foot. very close call!
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old_school

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Re: teathers
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2014, 08:32:02 AM »

still going back and forth on this one  :-\
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"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

DLottmann

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Re: teathers
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2014, 01:14:25 PM »

Tethers are good for experienced ice climbers who climb well with or without them... I think begineers would benefit from starting out leash-less and tether-less for a few seasons until they have dialed in some solid technique (x-position or not ;))
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Jeff

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Re: teathers
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2014, 03:22:34 PM »

Not so sure about this, Dave, as my clients and I were endangered 2 weeks ago by a newby's falling tool as he rappelled off of the N. end slab. I've been tether and wrist loop free for about 4 years now, but I've seen too many tools dropped by guided beginners at the local crags to be convinced that everyone should go leashless.  :-\  On a long, big mountain alpine route where a dropped tool could be a real problem, I would probably revert to some sort of tether myself.
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DLottmann

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Re: teathers
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2014, 05:08:28 PM »

Jeff, dropping a tool while rappeling? That has nothing to do with tethers IMO and simply gear management... easy enough to clip a carabiner through a hole in the ice axe and clip it to a gear loop. I'm guessing a Nomic though the gear loop holster style was to blame for the "fallen" tool? Not really a "dropped" tool...

Along these lines though, I have seen, even this season, dropped (or abandoned tools after a TR fall), from 1st day climbers on the N. End Pillars... This is an unfortunate result of "tourist climbing" encroaching on ice climbing... i.e. a high-school outing club out for a single day experience were we gloss over how to walk in crampons to get to the more exciting 2-tool ice climbing... NOT my favorite style of guiding, but some folks just want a quick experience, not a lifetime objective... Even in these cases, I think tethers/leashes would hamper what minute bit of technique we might convey in an 7 hour day...

EDIT: Rappeling off the N. End slab... so exciting
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:10:06 PM by DMan »
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: teathers
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2014, 06:25:28 PM »

I never dropped a leashed tool in 25+ years of climbing. I dropped leashless tools twice in the last 5 years. personaly I climb better and am more relaxed/ less gripped with the teathers.  INMOP if you solo leashless without teathers or a 3rd tool you are auditioning for a darwin award.  Even Uli uses em now...  After witnessing what happened to Isa sat @ the lake, If you guides  do not tie them sharp things to your client somehow you are being negligent INMOP...
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Admin Al

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Re: teathers
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2014, 09:38:01 PM »

FWIW - 13 years of climbing & soloing leashless and never dropped a tool.
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Al Hospers
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wildclimbr

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Re: teathers
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2014, 10:07:04 PM »

I first started rock climbing in 1977 after starting work at EMS in Hartford, where a bunch of my friends and climbers worked. At some point I tried out ice climbing, and still have my original tool: a Chouinard Alpine Hammer with the bamboo handle, and a trusty 75cm ice axe! Now don't start laughing yet…have a heart! I got some strap on Salewa crampons which I securely fastened to my Galibier Super Guides (which I acquired as the result of a return to EMS) and there I was, scared as hell on every ice climb I tried.  Needless to say, I gave up ice climbing for a while. At the time, that Alpine hammer and ice axe really needed a leash, so I attached some 1" tubular webbing and fabricated a leash, which increased my security immensely! I also had a tether on the hammer which always got in the way and created havoc with my attempts to plant it securely into the ice.  The hammer is still in my basement, now for a very long time.
When I picked up ice climbing again, but not too seriously, I acquired various tools, honed my systems, tried out lots of leashes, and finally settled upon the Black Diamond Lock Down Leash. I still use it today on my BD Vipers. Several of my partners also use this leash. In my opinion, it is the simplest, easiest to use leash that I have ever used, and find that I can get in and out of it within a couple seconds, all the while giving my weak hands a little relief and security when I am on the steep one.  Now when the clip on leashes came out a few years ago and were all the rage, I could not understand why anyone would want to have the leash permanently attached to their wrist while they tried to aim their cold fingers to a little release button while pumped, and then have to re-attach it after putting in some pro.  To me it was the "rage du jour" that I did not understand.
So now the "rage du jour" is leash less, and it seems that some folks think it is the best idea since…that clip on leash???  Just joking. I understand that there is a time and place for leashless climbing, and the tools have gotten so good that it can make a lot of sense to climbers who need that style. I generally climb pure ice, so I don't need to be switching hands, putting tools on my shoulder, etc. And that Lock Down leash, so easy to get in and out of, gives me that little extra bit of security that allows me to relax my hand and not fear the dropped tool.  When I am mountaineering, my tool is attached to me and I don't have to fear dropping it.  Based upon my early days of climbing with a tether, all I can say is that it is much more convenient to climb with my leash than a tether that always seemed to be in the way.
As for beginner climbers, why not give 'em a leash? Then they won't be dropping their tools unnecessarily, and as they develop skill, strength, endurance, and maybe an interest in continuing the sport, they can decide for themselves if a leash makes sense.
This is just some food for thought, in a sport where everyone should experiment and develop a system that works best for themselves.
Don P
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Admin Al

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Re: teathers
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2014, 10:29:30 PM »

I love the ability to swap hands at any time that I get with leashless. I tried the BD Android and lockdown leashes and was never able to do what I wanted, when I wanted. It was a REAL hassle when placing and taking out ice screws.

as far as beginners, I have found that in my guiding that they really take to leashless right off the bat.
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Al Hospers
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: teathers
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2014, 07:02:02 AM »

I also started a million years ago and have been through all the stages of forest Mojlnor knuckel basher, humming birds, 60cm chiounard axes in one hand 43cm hammer in the other with the home rigged teather that tangeled on everything, Simond Chakals , cassin anteres, Grivel machines w/ lockdown leash, Vipers w, Android clip leash , quarks leashles and now X dreams leashless. 

Leashes are like being in prison. not that I have ever been in prison but leashes really suck for climbing unless you are top ropeing and do not need to deal with any gear. leashes also suck on traverses and tricky exits from chimnys etc.  I am 100% for starting beginners out leashles. no point in teaching them bad habbits right off the bat.   

When the teathers first came out I fought them tooth and nail. I remembered  that huge cluster from my hammer teather way back in the day and that huge cluster I manage the create with my rock hammer teather every summer. NO way was I goona go back to that for ice climbing. Then I climbed with a pretty good climber who used the spinners and he planted the seed that they helped him relax.  I climbed the dike off the couch the next season and my quarks got iced up and I was way gripped by the time I managed to crawl into the woods and hug the trees at the top.  I started playing arround with a home made rig. it kind of sucked but it did make me relax my grip.  Santa brought me spinners for Xmas this year and they rock. No tangle , no hassel, all the freedom of leashless but the security of knowing that I am not messing with the #1 murphy rule of climbing. That which is not clipped in will eventually take a ride no matter how good or cool you are...

Folks always say they never drop tools but every time we have a good snow year the message boards are full of pleas for help in finding lost tools and it ain't all noobs.   Heck Isa almost got killed last weekend by a flying tool....
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Admin Al

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Re: teathers
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2014, 08:27:00 AM »

I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen. for "me" it hasn't happened (yet). I never seem to overgrip, so that's a non-issue. my old-school Ergo's have an amazing handle, I wouldn't even call it a grip it's so big, and I hardly even grip it at all. I use this open hand style that works great "for me". I can hang straight-arm and open-palm on that tool for a loooong time. I even practice doing that in the early season on the North End pillars and on Thresher.

That said, I tried a pair of those new X-Dream tools and they are really sweet, who knows, I may get a new set of tools this off-season...
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Al Hospers
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DLottmann

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Re: teathers
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2014, 09:39:09 AM »

Ya we are discussing two totally different topics here... leashes/teathers.

I agree with tradman leashes encourage bad habits in beginners, and like Al said, most beginners do fine starting out without leashes... even with pure ice climbing you lose flexibility using a leash...

Tethers I have come to accept, and if the system is simple and not a cluster than I think it probably is a good idea... if I ever climb with someone who uses them maybe I can take them for a spin...

As for tradmans negligence suggestion, out of 4 years of teaching beginners all winter long I have seen 1 dropped tool at the North End... most are just left in a solid placement when the climber falls and lets go...
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old_school

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Re: teathers
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2014, 09:47:53 AM »

Just purchased the Cassin X-gyro Umbilical...got it mostly for soloing. With my new life situation I no longer get big blocks of time off so I have to squeeze stuff in on my own...I have never dropped a tool, but that doesn't mean I won't hit the lottery some day..and chances are I will be 70' on a climb alone when it occurs. I will give them a try and see what I think and would be happy to report back once I have given them a fair shake. I have heard some good things about the x-gyros due to three swivels that they incorporate into the design as well as a carabiner or lasso/girth hitch attachment to the tools. Should be in sometime early next week.  ;)
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"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes."

tradmanclimbz

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Re: teathers
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2014, 05:45:43 PM »

the negligence  comment came from witnessing two dropped tools in 3 weeks. these bad boys each  went over 150ft. one of them almost hit Isa. had she not dodged she would have been nailed in a spot where a fall  could have been fatal and most certainly would have been really bad.   the trail allong the base of the lake was pure ice  and was a bit like soloing. you try to move quickly and time it sort of right when passing under a  route but not much you can do about random flying objects with no warning. Had isa lost her footing which would have been likly getting hit by a viper @ terminal velocity she was at the top of a 300ft  WI 1-2 flow of blue water ice.  I know i will not take beginners out  anymore without setting them up with teathers.  dropped tool  probobly no big deal @ the north end but a real big deal on any kind of multi pitch.
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