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Author Topic: Lincoln's Throat call out  (Read 3544 times)

steve weitzler

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2013, 01:44:05 PM »

Wow!!!! LL agrees with me. I have read the post three times and I still don't know what the hell he is saying but I am sure LL does and I am sure if he agrees with me than I must agree with him.
I pieced together some of LL's post and this is what I came up with:

"Long climbing tool stick a Sherpa better a mule use a technique inappropriate for situation is a problem."

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JBrochu

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2013, 02:17:53 PM »

I mean the criticism we read in the report was that he made the mistake of "leaving the trail" and "traveling alone." So anybody soloing anything is now being irresponsible?[...]

I just don't trust a bureaucrat to decide who is incompetent or reckless. Also we waste so much money on corporate welfare a few rescues here and there are peanuts.

soloing is not for beginner. I didn't made my training this year and don't want to solo before I have do it. For you a beginner is someone who climb a grade four in lead, for me it is someone who master his technique from crampon to the hardiest one.

Accessibility: you can do every thing, just place a bolt...bring a compass.... be in bad shape...

What you said and what you did is so different that people who want to imitate the good climber are trap in problem...or death. It is what happen mostly in Quebec. Two climber train in sport route every week end and went to do an aid route. Both fall from the cliff because they wasn't tie in to the rock at every moment. Stupidity of the climber influence the coroner to say that it was a bad sling who was the cause of their death. Although, tie in with the rope and they had been with us today. Every other gear was still on the wall very carefully place after the fall. 

Many accident is due to the reckless of the model that people imitate...and it is not the fault of bureaucrat!!!

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sneoh

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2013, 05:03:49 PM »

LL, I do not think anyone is saying the accident is the bureaucrats' fault.
I think the point was/is do we rely on a bureaucrat to decide whether the actions of the rescued were reckless and hence can be charged for the rescue.
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Pete Jackson

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2013, 07:04:35 PM »

I think charging money for rescues deters the wrong people. Folks who actually think about how likely they are to need a rescue given a certain set of conditions are not likely to be unprepared, exceed their ability, or exercise poor judgement. Especially so if they make the call not to go uphill.  :-)

Are rescue costs very out-of-control compared to other things we spend money on that does not save lives? The investment in paid SAR seems sound to me. Nobody I know wants to be rescued by SAR, nor counts on it to bail themselves out.

Save the lives. Shame people who make bad decisions. That's all fine. But deterrence? I doubt that works here.

(Note: if someone have a hold mountaineering freedom of the hill fifth edition, I will buy it, I lost mine) 

I don't have this edition, but recently Dman posted one for sale and I'd bet it is still available... Karma is a bitch, isn't it?
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lucky luke

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2013, 07:09:05 PM »

LL, I do not think anyone is saying the accident is the bureaucrats' fault.
I think the point was/is do we rely on a bureaucrat to decide whether the actions of the rescued were reckless and hence can be charged for the rescue.

I agree with you. For a bureaucrate, institutionalisation of climbing is better because it as a structure with rules and way to do the good thing. What we saw in school and gym, it is institutionalisation of a sport that they can associate easily with gymnastic.

What we talk is the ability to set our own rules as we climb, but with respect for other user tof the environment. There is hiker, sport/trad climber, ice climber, hunter, etc.

Climbing is freedom.
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sneoh

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2013, 07:38:27 PM »

Are you running a fever, Champ?  Agree with me and SteveW (no matter how minor) on the same day?  WOW.

amazon.com has used The Freedom of the Hills, 5th Edition.
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

tradmanclimbz

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2013, 09:53:40 PM »

I seriously doubt there are folks going into the woods planning on being rescued but shit happens. That being said i almost never bring a phone climbing.  Although I did bring a phone  up the dike once. I had only had a cell for about a month or so. I got the phone cause my mom was in ICU.  My car crapped out  just as I was going through Rumny.  I made it limp all the way to cannon  cliff trailhead parking lot.  My car rolled in deader than week old dog shit. Met my friends, suited up and hiked the Dike. On the way back down I checked the time and realized it was getting close to 5:00pm and it occured to me that i Might not be able to get a rental car after 5pm and that i was supposed to be in NY the next day driveing my mom to radiation.  Used the cell to dial 911  made sure they knew it was  a NON emergency and  asked how one went about getting a tow from Rt93. she hooked me up with a state cop who called a tow truck and gave me a ride to the Enterprise desk in Littleton w/ 5 min to spare while my grand caravan was getting towed to the dodge dealer accross the street.  Whole thing worked slicker than dog snot on linolium:) the kicker was I had to get back to littleton the next week to drop off the rental, pick up the Dodge and get on Fafnir and the Dike again ;D
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sneoh

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2013, 10:36:16 PM »

Good use of the cell phone, Trad.
My friends do it (so I have to forgive them) .... I get annoyed when I hear a phone ring or buzz when we are at a crag or on a climb.  Damn it, I get enough of that Mon-Fri.  I go climbing expecting to get away from all this for a while.  I give the wife and kid a call on the way back to the car or while on the road (if we end up quitting early).  More often than not, I leave the phone in the car. 
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

neiceclimber

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2013, 08:15:03 AM »

You can't have SAR making people wait for daylight to rescue, or wait even an hour. Whether the danger is real or perceived to the victim or their family, waiting will in most cases be far more expensive.  it costs the same amount to copter someone off a mountain alive or dead, but dead people don't respond to whistles or voices so more man power and tools are needed to search.

While I'll poke fun at and criticize people for reckless accidents. Could you imagine how shitty one would feel if they told someone to just walk out or call us in the morning and they died.
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lucky luke

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2013, 10:50:53 AM »

You can't have SAR making people wait for daylight to rescue, or wait even an hour. Whether the danger is real or perceived to the victim or their family, waiting will in most cases be far more expensive.  it costs the same amount to copter someone off a mountain alive or dead, but dead people don't respond to whistles or voices so more man power and tools are needed to search.

On a board at pinckam notch, we have a sign who describe the ten essential for an hiker. For climber, we don't have those think. Which technique do we have when the situation are going wrong. Going to camp at havard cabin in a very cold weather before going to the top, knowing how to bivy with a bivy bag, a pad and a sleeping bag, knowing three or four crampon technique, body x position and more advance technique, climbing in good weather before going in a white out, etc.

actually, we have a sign who work like a light. If it is green , just go through the intersection without worrying. If it is yellow...you take a chance to have a ticket...but nobody died from having a ticket. and if it is red...nobody will go in the mountain. That situation bring two problem: first, the signalization can be wrong. An avy post could be low and you can have an avalanche. second the climber is not responsible.

Gave an other number than 911 for rescue and stipulate that it is not a free service. As the people have to call and be charge for the call...you will see that just the one who really need to be rescue will call.   
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steve weitzler

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2013, 12:52:07 PM »

Could you imagine how shitty one would feel if they told someone to just walk out or call us in the morning and they died.


Depending on the situation, I am not so sure I would feel that shitty.
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bfulton

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2013, 02:15:24 PM »

I hope he at least made a hefty donation to the SAR fund.



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neiceclimber

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2013, 03:02:37 PM »

I guess all I'm saying is you can have all or none. You either charge for all instances requiring rescuing or none. Whose to say what is a more "noble" of a rescue? Do you really want some person in concord deciding that glissading is more reckless than hiking in sneakers on a sunny spring day.
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Admin Al

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2013, 10:03:43 AM »

Do you really want some person in concord deciding that glissading is more reckless than hiking in sneakers on a sunny spring day.

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DaveR

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2013, 10:50:59 AM »

Do you really want some person in concord deciding that glissading is more reckless than hiking in sneakers on a sunny spring day.

Considering governmant F's up just about everything they touch keep them far, far away!
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