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Author Topic: Lincoln's Throat call out  (Read 3172 times)

bfulton

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #75 on: December 19, 2013, 11:35:39 AM »

I assume NH Fish and Game coordinate all SAR missons. Is that right?

I became curious about it so I looked it up. In NH the government bureaucrats are NH Fish and Game and NH Attorney General.

According to the NH Fish and Game website nonhiker/climber outdoor people seem to pay for us to have the luxury to be allowed a rescue free of charge as we enjoy the Freedom of the Hills

from http://www.wildnh.com/Law_Enforcement/sar.html

"Over the past six years (FY 2006-2012), the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department conducted approximately 957 search and rescue missions, at an approximate cost of $1.8 million.

Over the three years from 2010 to 2012, Fish and Game's expenditures for conducting search and rescue missions averaged approximately $360,000 annually.

In spite of what most people believe, tax dollars are not used to support these missions. To help funding Search and Rescue efforts, a $1 fee added to every boat, OHRV, and ATV registration is deposited into the Search and Rescue Fund. Any costs above and beyond what the boat and OHRV fees bring into Fish and Game each year must be covered with revenue from hunting and fishing license fees.

Climbers and hikers utilize 57% of all search and rescue services. Hunters, anglers, boaters, snowmobilers and ATV riders combined use 14% of the total services. Interestingly, 43% of all search and rescue missions are conducted on White Mountain National Forest properties

In 2008, a law was passed authorizing Fish and Game to request reimbursement from negligent hikers. If a personís behavior is determined to be negligent and, as a result of their negligent actions, a search mission was initiated, they may be asked to reimburse the Department for the costs of the mission. While this change in the law has helped Fish and Game recoup some costs, it falls far short of supporting the search and rescue program.

All Search and Rescue missions go through a review process involving guidelines established by the N.H. Attorney General's Office. That process involves the mission's supervisor within Fish and Game Law Enforcement, N.H. Fish and Game Department administration, and final concurrence through a review by the N.H. Attorney General's Office. All cases are unique and not all will get billed.

It hardly seems fair that sportsmen and women pay for search and rescue services; what can be done to change this?

There certainly needs to be a more equitable way to support these services. Over the past twenty years, New Hampshire Fish and Game has submitted a dozen different ideas and bills to the Legislature for consideration in an effort to address the financial shortfalls in the Search and Rescue fund in a way that would allow the broader public, which benefits from the services, to help pay for them. To date, most have failed to pass."
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 11:46:34 AM by bfulton »
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The other tomcat

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2013, 12:40:36 PM »

Seems to me most rescues are initiated by someone other than the rescuee. So how would you determine who pays for that? And who gets the money? The state guys who man a radio at a truck while SAR groups doing the heavy lifting get what? Did you want to go out in the middle of the night with some other guys getting overtime while you will lose a days pay tomorrow?

Then there is the issue of defining negligence. I'm soloing Lincoln's Throat and fall and break my leg. I didn't get lost, and I am in survival mode, suitably prepared, am I negligent for soloing? How often do I need to place screws to be deemed "not" negligent, ( not an issue for me...lol!).

Charging generally presumes results are produced, but sometimes expensive rescues don't produce much for results. How will you make that fair?
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Tom Stryker

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #77 on: December 19, 2013, 02:09:19 PM »

Easiest way to address this is let people be responsible for themselves. No search and rescue missions. If you fall and break your leg call your friends, let them come and get you. Charles Darwin was correct!!
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DaveR

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2013, 03:17:10 PM »

I assume NH Fish and Game coordinate all SAR missons. Is that right?

I became curious about it so I looked it up. In NH the government bureaucrats are NH Fish and Game and NH Attorney General.

According to the NH Fish and Game website nonhiker/climber outdoor people seem to pay for us to have the luxury to be allowed a rescue free of charge as we enjoy the Freedom of the Hills

from http://www.wildnh.com/Law_Enforcement/sar.html

"Over the past six years (FY 2006-2012), the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department conducted approximately 957 search and rescue missions, at an approximate cost of $1.8 million.

Over the three years from 2010 to 2012, Fish and Game's expenditures for conducting search and rescue missions averaged approximately $360,000 annually.

In spite of what most people believe, tax dollars are not used to support these missions. To help funding Search and Rescue efforts, a $1 fee added to every boat, OHRV, and ATV registration is deposited into the Search and Rescue Fund. Any costs above and beyond what the boat and OHRV fees bring into Fish and Game each year must be covered with revenue from hunting and fishing license fees.

Climbers and hikers utilize 57% of all search and rescue services. Hunters, anglers, boaters, snowmobilers and ATV riders combined use 14% of the total services. Interestingly, 43% of all search and rescue missions are conducted on White Mountain National Forest properties

In 2008, a law was passed authorizing Fish and Game to request reimbursement from negligent hikers. If a personís behavior is determined to be negligent and, as a result of their negligent actions, a search mission was initiated, they may be asked to reimburse the Department for the costs of the mission. While this change in the law has helped Fish and Game recoup some costs, it falls far short of supporting the search and rescue program.

All Search and Rescue missions go through a review process involving guidelines established by the N.H. Attorney General's Office. That process involves the mission's supervisor within Fish and Game Law Enforcement, N.H. Fish and Game Department administration, and final concurrence through a review by the N.H. Attorney General's Office. All cases are unique and not all will get billed.

It hardly seems fair that sportsmen and women pay for search and rescue services; what can be done to change this?

There certainly needs to be a more equitable way to support these services. Over the past twenty years, New Hampshire Fish and Game has submitted a dozen different ideas and bills to the Legislature for consideration in an effort to address the financial shortfalls in the Search and Rescue fund in a way that would allow the broader public, which benefits from the services, to help pay for them. To date, most have failed to pass."

You have done your homework!

Every year I support SAR with the purchase of my NH sporting license. (Combination hunting, fishing and trapping and very expensive for a non resident!) That is on top of all the classes I am required to take to get the license. Go to NH Fish and Game to see the requirements to get a hunting or trapping license. It's not easy and it's expensive! Most people have no clue how much revenue comes from things like a hunting license. I don't think it is at all fair that sportsman have to pay for a climbers rescue.

Steve W. makes some very good points. People need to be more responsible and self sufficient.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 03:27:08 PM by DaveR »
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Pete Jackson

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2013, 06:17:56 PM »

I don't think it is at all fair that sportsman have to pay for a climbers rescue.

No, it's not completely equitable, especially since hunters don't like to walk too far.

I have a fishing license, though, which makes me feel a little better about it.
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sneoh

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2013, 07:51:28 PM »

This makes me feel like I should get a NH fishing license even tho I have no intention to fish in NH!
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DLottmann

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2013, 08:18:19 PM »

This makes me feel like I should get a NH fishing license even tho I have no intention to fish in NH!

I hear that. Perhaps NH F&G could set up an easy way to donate to the S&R fund?

An easy way to donate to Mountain Rescue Service is already set up on their website:

http://www.nhmrs.org/

Just click donations, and that money would 100% go to MRS expenses keeping our gear up to date and paying for training.

Perhaps MRS could start a "Friends of MRS" membership drive... that could help us at the local grassroots level. A "Friends of NH S&R" wouldn't be a bad idea either...

If NH doesn't find a way to cover S&R costs I predict at some point our "Live Free or Die" motto will not equal "Climb free and don't get charged for rescues" reality...
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sneoh

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #82 on: December 19, 2013, 08:31:18 PM »

Thanks DMan.  I will donate some to Mountain Rescue Service.  Worth it!  Thanks to all who made it 501(c)3.
But really we as a community of hikers and climbers should address this inequality - "Climbers and hikers utilize 57% of all search and rescue services. Hunters, anglers, boaters, snowmobilers and ATV riders combined use 14% of the total services. ".  That is a ratio of 4X.
I have also thought that a lot of ATV riders are reckless but the numbers show that it is us hikers and climbers that "need" rescuing most of the time!  Surprise!!
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

danf

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #83 on: December 19, 2013, 08:33:39 PM »

Did you want to go out in the middle of the night with some other guys getting overtime while you will lose a days pay tomorrow?
Ding, ding, ding!

I don't know how many of you remember the girl that ran away from the neuro-institution here in Effingham back in June.  F&G "coordinated" that search.  While I wasn't directly involved with the search (had to work), I use the quotations based on everything I've heard about this search in particular as well as the general feeling about F&G in the fire department community.

I don't know how the relationship between F&G and MRS is.  I suspect, because of the technical nature of MRS, that it's a much different relationship than F&G has with us in the fire service. 

Back to the girl that ran away.  My wife and I went to the call for the carry-out.  My wife is an EMT, I went as an extra set of hands.  We live close by and know the area.  The guys (and girl) directly involved with the carry-out seemed like good people.  However, the ranking officer was that was there that night didn't seem to give 2 shits about us or any insight we had about the area.  Based on what I've heard from others, it's the same regardless of what the situation is or where (again, I don't know how it is with MRS though). 

If F&G actually wants to save money on these searches, it wouldn't be hard to do.  All they'd have to do is work *WITH* the volunteers that show up, rather than blatantly ignoring their input.  F&G, from my understanding, is also one of the only agencies in the state that does not follow the incident command system (ICS) that is place across the fire, police and EMS services.  ICS would force them to do things differently, which is why I suspect they don't use it...
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danf

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #84 on: December 19, 2013, 08:37:52 PM »

But really we as a community of hikers and climbers should address this inequality
At least you are realizing it now.  Hunters and fisherman have carried much of the financial burden for decades, not only for the S&R topic at hand, but also many of the same lands where S&R is carried out.  Every fishing rod, rifle, piece of ammunition, etc, etc, etc, has a small tax on it.  These taxes are what funds the vast majority of the conservation lands across the US.  Look up the "Pittman-Robinson" act.  There's a matching one for fishing stuff but I don't remember what the name of that one is off the top of my head.
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sneoh

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #85 on: December 19, 2013, 08:44:19 PM »

OK, Dan, suggestions then?
Do you think F&G is overspending on the SAR of hiker and climbers beacuse they are inefficient and do not use  good on-the-ground intel?  If that is the case, tho I feel bad we "overtax" SAR, I am more inclined to want the inefficiencies reduced before making a donation. 
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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

danf

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #86 on: December 19, 2013, 09:07:30 PM »

For the cases in the White Mountains where it's typically F&G and MRS, I honestly can't say.  I haven't been on any of those and I haven't talked to anyone involved with any of them.  Again, I suspect it's a different dynamic between F&G and MRS than what I have experienced.

However, for any type of search where F&G involves the local agencies (such as the one here in Effingham back in June), yes I believe there are inefficiencies.  How measurable they are is hard to say.  In June, the girl went missing on Saturday.  They waited until Monday to bring in anyone on a large scale basis.  I can understand wanting to use Saturday to organize and use search dogs, even the first part of Sunday.  I see no reason why outside help could not have started searching the close areas (where the dogs had been previously) on Sunday afternoon.  The girl wasn't found until Wednesday.  And get this- she was found after the formal search had been called off by F&G for the day...  A volunteer, not even associated with ANY agency, found her. 

When my wife and I responded for the call to carry out, we told the officer in charge that there was a road up the back side of Green Mountain that was pretty much right beside where the girl was.  Granted it's not a great road, but I guarantee at least one of their 4x4 state issued trucks could have driven up....  The response we were given was "she's coming back down here".  "Here" being the Highwatch side where the neuro facility is located.  Which meant climbing up the mountain, down the back side 1/4 mile to where she was, then back to the top with her in a Stokes basket for that 1/4 mile and then downhill.  Had the girl been in any more critical shape the time saved by driving up that road could have been huge.  It easily could have gotten her to a transport ambulance at least 30-45 minutes earlier.  BUT someone at F&G decided that since all of their trucks were on the Highwatch side that is where she was coming down...

One of the Forest Rangers told me about one of his experiences with F&G.  He showed up to help in a search for a missing kid a while back.  Mind you this is a guy that is in the woods all the time, knows how to use a map and compass, etc.  He didn't have a lot of time to give, but wanted to help.  Where did F&G put him?  Searching in an area that had already been searched...

If I were to make a donation to either F&G or MRS, I'd donate all day long to MRS.  I've eaten enough tags since moving to NH that I consider that enough of a donation to F&G...
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DaveR

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #87 on: December 20, 2013, 12:56:09 AM »

You guys have really done your homework. Next time someone bitches about hunting and fishing just remind them that if hunting and fishing were done away with many of the environmental programs they like so much would not be funded. Not only do I have to buy a license but then you buy a duck stamp, bear tag if you want to hunt bear, a turkey tag, a salt water fishing permit and on and on.... buying a hunting license is no good without the tags and stamps.

not including fishing or trapping for a non resident,   Prices taken from the NH fish and game website.
hunting license $103
pheasant tag $26
bear tag $48
migratory waterfowl permit $5
turkey permit $31
wildlife legacy donation $10
non game and endangered wildlife donation $5
annual habitat fee $2.50

Total for just my hunting license $230.50 not including the required classes to be able to get it. You can't just go buy a license.
The fees and classes for trapping are crazy!
Last year my cost for just the 3 permits (hunt, fish and trap) was just under $500 dollars!
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The other tomcat

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #88 on: December 20, 2013, 08:04:51 AM »

danf's experience points up another potential downside of charging for a search. Search areas, particularly for kids, increase exponentially as time goes by. With a potential fee or fine, the longer people wait the more the search is likely to cost, and good outcomes become harder to achieve.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 09:29:07 AM by The other tomcat »
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Tom Stryker

danf

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2013, 09:22:12 AM »

Total for just my hunting license $230.50 not including the required classes to be able to get it. You can't just go buy a license.
That's for a non-resident.  My resident license is much cheaper. ;)  The only class I know of that you have to have for a hunting license is hunters ed (or bowhunters ed, depending on how you hunt) and that's a once and done (did mine at Boy Scout camp 20+ years ago back in IN).  I assume you are also referring to a trapping class?  Is that an annual class?
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