Author Topic: Lincoln's Throat call out  (Read 3974 times)

Offline OldEric

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2013, 10:21:16 AM »
Privatize SAR.  Everybody pays.  Doesn't matter if you are a naked drunken bimbo or an esteemed mountain master who had a fluke accident.  Everybody pays.  Most everybody has insurance.  Get the incompetent out of shape public employes out of the picture and get professionals.  That's the way the rest of the civilized world works.  But I guess they don't get to live free AND die.

Offline frik

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2013, 10:47:31 AM »
Interesting discussion. A couple points:

When looking at the stats,  I'd like to decouple hikers and climbers..... they are really two completely different activities, with two completely different constituencies. It's nice for the state to lump these together because neither one buys a hunting/fishing license, or a vehicle/boat registration. 

57% + 14% = 71%... whats the rest?

Anyone who advocates for an official  "voluntary" fee that climber and hikers could pay into which would be dedicated for SAR (maybe you get a nice sticker or a patch to show your support) should realize that there things never stay voluntary...(see the Forest service day use pass). Do you really want to pay for a yearly license, so you are allowed to walk in your woods, ski on your hills, climb on your cliffs? Maybe you do.
   
While its true that climbers and hikers don't in general pay cash into a SAR fund. They quite often provide essential SAR services - for free. Without the volunteer outfits like, White Mountain SAR, Androscoggin valley SAR and many others, fish & came the forest service and the NH parks would be incapable of rescuing anyone. That's not to put the boot into those agencies but they just don't have the manpower, nor the technical expertise in some situations. In addition to the volunteer organizations, most climbers willingly volunteer their time to pitch in when the situation requires it. You climb long enough or often enough, and you've been there probably more than once.

Offline DaveR

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2013, 11:09:43 AM »
Total for just my hunting license $230.50 not including the required classes to be able to get it. You can't just go buy a license.
That's for a non-resident.  My resident license is much cheaper. ;)  The only class I know of that you have to have for a hunting license is hunters ed (or bowhunters ed, depending on how you hunt) and that's a once and done (did mine at Boy Scout camp 20+ years ago back in IN).  I assume you are also referring to a trapping class?  Is that an annual class?

Dan, you are correct. Hunter safety is 1 time only. For trapping you have to redo classes as the laws change. Those classes are more about the trapping reg's than safety or anything. Also, the record keeping for a trapper gets quite cumbersome and the rules are VERY complex compared to hunting and fishing.

The prices I quoted are for a non resident.

Offline steve weitzler

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2013, 11:29:41 AM »
Dave, How much is the license for trapping climbers? resident? non-resident? ;) ;)

Offline neiceclimber

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2013, 11:51:06 AM »
Dave, How much is the license for trapping climbers? resident? non-resident? ;) ;)

It must not be that much. Champ/ LL keeps snaring people, letting them go and then snaring them again with the same old bait.

Offline Pete Jackson

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2013, 11:54:46 AM »
Dave, How much is the license for trapping climbers? resident? non-resident? ;) ;)

It must not be that much. Champ/ LL keeps snaring people, letting them go and then snaring them again with the same old bait.

ZING!

We came to climb, not to whine.

Offline steve weitzler

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #96 on: December 20, 2013, 01:19:33 PM »
I think Champ is trapping illegally!!! Certainly non-resident eh!!!! ;D ;D

Offline lucky luke

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #97 on: December 20, 2013, 01:39:41 PM »
I think Champ is trapping illegally!!! Certainly non-resident eh!!!! ;D ;D

I don't do any thing illegal. And I bring new money (from Canada) into your economy. Before Quebec people who spend there vacation time was a large part of the economy of your area.

Further more, I never used any rescue services in snow/rain in very hard situation on Mt Washington, I paid for my injury and, as an AAC member and with my action (not always fun) in this forum, I contribute to safety.  If intervene to be safe when a climber is with a women is the hardiest situation (It's also one of the hardest situations in which to intervene and provide a safety reset when you see something dangerous: Pete Jackson), intervene to be safe with two ethic is the second hardiest.

Offline DaveR

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #98 on: December 20, 2013, 04:21:40 PM »
Dave, How much is the license for trapping climbers? resident? non-resident? ;) ;)

A trapping license for French Canadians is free with no limit on how many you can take!  ;) For all other species it is expensive.  :(

Offline steve weitzler

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2013, 04:48:06 PM »
Sorry champ.  Didn't mean to upset you.  I was only joking. Spent a week at Mt. Ste. Anne this summer trail running and biking. Had a great time met some great people. Pumped some money into the economy and can't wait to go back. Climb safely Champ. :)

DLottmann

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2013, 07:26:29 PM »
I don't do any thing illegal. And I bring new money (from Canada) into your economy. Before Quebec people who spend there vacation time was a large part of the economy of your area.

Speaking of pumping money into the economy kindly remind your brethren that in the US it's custom to tip 15-20% for good service.

Sorry if that comes off offensive but 4 years slinging drinks and waiting tables at two busy restaurants in the valley and we all groaned when we would get a party of Canadians in our section...

... with my action... in this forum, I contribute to safety...

I applaud your desire to contribute to safety, but I feel you are disillusioned if you think you are changing anyone's risk management by what you write here. I know it makes sense in your head, but no one is having "ah ha" moments reading your tiring posts... if you really want to help stop generalizing and stereo-typing so much...

With respect,

-D

Offline sneoh

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #101 on: December 20, 2013, 07:49:03 PM »
Off topic here for a while, about 8 years ago, I went to Japan on a business trip.  Tipping was a challenge.  I was told by my local colleague that tipping is expected at certain places while frowned upon at others.  Like a lot of Japanese culture, I found the "rules" incredibly intricate and quite nuanced so I just told my colleague to take care of all the tipping (or not).  Incredible service tho everywhere we ate and drank at ... but that's a story for another day.

DMan, how would you characterize the co-operation between NH F&G and MRS in MWV when it comes to SAR?  Does F&G always get involved?  WHen they do, do they "run the show"?

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #102 on: December 20, 2013, 08:09:07 PM »
DMan, how would you characterize the co-operation between NH F&G and MRS in MWV when it comes to SAR?  Does F&G always get involved?  WHen they do, do they "run the show"?

First off I am a relatively new member of MRS and have only worked with F&G on perhaps a half dozen rescues. From that experience I can say I think F&G and MRS get along superbly during rescues. F&G genuinely appreciates our skill level and volunteerism, and solicits our advice when appropriate. They recognize our high technical skill and ability to perform in the harshest of conditions. We are also good at taking orders and not questioning authority when we don't have the big picture. I can understand F&G and other agencies leading complex S&R missions not always showing the right gratitude to folks who want to help but might become a liability during a search (not saying you would). But if an incident commander doesn't know you from a brick in the wall how can he vet your advice?

Just sayin' don't take it personal if your advice, as sound as it probably was, seemed dismissed by the F&G folks you dealt with. And re-searching an area already searched is incredibly valuable... as missing people are often found in areas "already checked".

Offline danf

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #103 on: December 20, 2013, 09:02:10 PM »
F&G genuinely appreciates our skill level and volunteerism, and solicits our advice when appropriate. They recognize our high technical skill and ability to perform in the harshest of conditions.
This is why I suspected it was a different dynamic between MRS and F&G. 

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Just sayin' don't take it personal if your advice, as sound as it probably was, seemed dismissed by the F&G folks you dealt with.
While I see your point, the advice we gave to them was after they had been searching for more than 4 days.  By that time they should have been intimately familiar with all of the access points.  The complete dismissal of the possibility of driving to the lost girl blew me away.  Especially considering the wet conditions that night- more than one person could have twisted an ankle or a knee or slipped and broken an arm in a fall on the carry out.  Anyone that has been up the Highwatch side of Green Mountain should be able to recall the slick nature of the exposed rock in the trail.  Add in a light rain and darkness and the danger increases.  A lot...

Quote
And re-searching an area already searched is incredibly valuable... as missing people are often found in areas "already checked".
I don't disagree with this at all.  However, using the resources available to their fullest extent would seem prudent to me....

And to call anyone at F&G an "incident commander" is a bit of a misnomer to those trained in the ICS system.  Calling them such implies that they work with all jurisdictions and agencies; based on my experience and those that I have talked to this is not the case across the board.

DLottmann

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #104 on: December 20, 2013, 09:22:38 PM »
Ah, sorry I couldn't remember who had posted the comment so my post seemed like it was Sneoh...

Anyways, sorry you had a negative experience while trying to be helpful. I have no idea the details of the search you refer to but I can say that even the most experienced folks in charge of a S&R, no matter what you call them, could have made a mistake not using you to your fullest extent... hope the search was successful!