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Author Topic: Lincoln's Throat call out  (Read 3579 times)

eyebolter

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 10:23:36 AM »

Probobly the only real mistake he made was not getting  home on his own power.

This seperate incident from Monday was pretty lame.
http://www.conwaydailysun.com/index.php/newsx/local-news/110386-rescue-121013


Hope they do get charged.   Cellphones were the worst thing to happen to winter climbing in the Whites.
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bfulton

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 10:33:16 AM »

A common denominator in both epics/accidents is they were all in their early 20's.

Too much testosterone

on the side, if Fielding was ok, why fly him out? Give him some warm water and food and let him hike out to ponder on what he did.
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Pete Jackson

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 10:46:51 AM »

"Only the more prepared members carried extra clothing, bivvy gear, goggles and flashlights."

I can understand leaving out the bivvy gear, but flashlights? I take my headlamp when I go out for a morning of climbing, expecting to be back at noon. It's so light there is no excuse to not have it in your pack at all times (except when it's on your head...)

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DaveR

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 11:07:33 AM »

A common denominator in both epics/accidents is they were all in their early 20's.

Too much testosterone

on the side, if Fielding was ok, why fly him out? Give him some warm water and food and let him hike out to ponder on what he did.

I have the same question. If he was OK as we are being told why did we the taxpayers have to pay to fly him out. The hike down from Little Haystack should be pretty trivial for someone capable of soloing Lincolns throat after some food and warm drink.
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steve weitzler

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 11:53:32 AM »

Sorry to sound like a grumpy, old man but I might have left him there to figure it out himself and let him hike out on his own. Of course being the kind hearted soul I am I would have given him a map and pointed him in the right direction. Shit Doug Scott crawled down the Ogre certainly this guy could have walked down the trail.
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pappy

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2013, 12:02:03 PM »

A common denominator in both epics/accidents is they were all in their early 20's.

Too much testosterone

on the side, if Fielding was ok, why fly him out? Give him some warm water and food and let him hike out to ponder on what he did.

I have the same question. If he was OK as we are being told why did we the taxpayers have to pay to fly him out. The hike down from Little Haystack should be pretty trivial for someone capable of soloing Lincolns throat after some food and warm drink.

Ditto. If I were in such a situation I would have kept moving just to stay warm; I'd have gotten out. It wouldn't have been the first time for something similar. As to flying him out, as I understand it once SAR is involved they are going to baby sit you until you get out, just because of the liability if they don't and something happens. Remains to be seen how that liability works out if the heli crashes on some future rescue.
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DaveR

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2013, 12:51:58 PM »

Sorry to sound like a grumpy, old man but I might have left him there to figure it out himself and let him hike out on his own. Of course being the kind hearted soul I am I would have given him a map and pointed him in the right direction. Shit Doug Scott crawled down the Ogre certainly this guy could have walked down the trail.

You sound like the normal grumpy old Steve! ;) I have to agree with you though from what we know now as the facts.

Falling waters trail is a pretty easy trail to stumble down even in the dark. I have done it and probably many other people on this board have also! MRS has walked people out before, why the ride this time? The guy is on the trail down, 3 miles from the road, and spends the night out. I hate the cold and if I was his partner I think he would have spent the night sitting there alone!

Pappy is right here, keep moving to keep warm and make it to the bar very late for a beer with a great story to tell. Really little excuse for being stuck where he was IMO especially well equipped.

HEADLAMP and Fire starter- I never leave home without it in the winter when the days are short and the consequences of spending a night out can be ugly.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:00:42 PM by DaveR »
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DLottmann

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2013, 01:56:48 PM »

Probobly the only real mistake he made was not getting  home on his own power.

This seperate incident from Monday was pretty lame.
http://www.conwaydailysun.com/index.php/newsx/local-news/110386-rescue-121013

Ya that one was BS. Successfully summit-ted but not well prepared so lets extend our time above tree-line by walking down the 8 mile auto road instead of walking 3 miles alongside the Cog... this group made very poor decisions and should be held accountable for the cost of the rescue.
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DLottmann

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2013, 02:01:52 PM »

I have the same question. If he was OK as we are being told why did we the taxpayers have to pay to fly him out. The hike down from Little Haystack should be pretty trivial for someone capable of soloing Lincolns throat after some food and warm drink.

I'm wondering this too. While I was on the rescue only David knows the full story but I do know there where some other factors at play. I have a friend who knows the young man and may have more insight, but it isn't up to me to speculate without his consent. He may post here, or let me post more than I have. I'll let you know, as I think we'd all like to figure out what happened.
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JChepes

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2013, 04:19:09 PM »

I have not finished this route but have learned how committing of a climb it is.  A couple years ago me and the lady made an attempt at it.  Tripped up the approach and fell knee deep into the brook.  Was early December and we turned around about halfway up the drainage. I was going to dry my socks with the stove but my girlfriend talked me out of it. 5 hours car to car with no summit.  Anyways, very committing solo and freaking really cold up there too!  Glad he's ok. 
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lucky luke

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2013, 12:27:06 PM »

Probobly the only real mistake he made was not getting  home on his own power.

This seperate incident from Monday was pretty lame.
http://www.conwaydailysun.com/index.php/newsx/local-news/110386-rescue-121013

In Quebec, we have one death per year. So, it is not a surprise that some hiker was trap at the summit of Mt Washington. The last winter was very mild and many climber talk about there expedition on Mt Washington/Lincoln throat. It is, in there opinion, easier than a grade four on ice. I went with someone like that: he felt on grade two ice and three more time after...and get hard time in route finding. The next day, he still want to climb a hard route in bad weather, which I decline. 

As tradmanclimbz said, it is a mistake and, with a little bit more training, he will be able to be stronger and to teach to other that there is a way to get out of a danger with out injury.

I like to see the budget between tourism/cost of the injury. Often the guard stay at the office waiting for a call. Some fire fighter can wait all day long, but they get paid. So the cost is not as high as it could be in France where an helicopter were mandate to rescue climbers specifically.

Is it better to charge the guy who won't climb any more and stay in his city or to have tourism that will know that the mountain is dangerous and example of a guy who stay in the wild. I agree with Pappy that rescue most be done, but not at the first call, except in case of severe injury.

if we keep in mind that the last thing that we want to do, it is to call 911...as Base told me one day... we will find a solution to get out.

It need training of course. and training is not climbing in a gym, but outside close to a road in very cold weather.       
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2013, 04:56:28 PM »

Na, training is getting in over your head and surviveing 8) Simo soloing 1986 my partner decided to fall from about 30ft from the top of the ice on Odels. he went  big but somehow stopped in the snow about 200 ft below the start of the ice.   He did land right in front of a large group class in mtn rescue. Jud was concious and  I payed attention as they did the evac by the books. The next season  we rescued a guy out of central that was pretty bad off but we knew just how to do it after our "training" the febuary before.....
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DLottmann

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Re: Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2013, 06:02:28 PM »


Often the guard stay at the office waiting for a call. Some fire fighter can wait all day long, but they get paid. So the cost is not as high as it could be in France

Is it better to charge the guy who won't climb any more and stay in his city

Around here you're getting somebody out of bed at 2am to volunteer MRS or on call fish & game.

To call in a rescue because you're cold walking down the auto road is lame.

In that case I would say yes to your question. The MRS would still head out but yes.

I think there is a cultural difference with some Canadian climbers that could cause more of these casual calls for help. Canada Parks has well paid, well trained, well staffed & equipped mountain rescue folks on 24 hour call... I have heard they even discourage fellow recreational climbers from helping an injured climber and to “let the pros take care of it”... this rubs me the wrong way as climbers have always come to each other’s aid IMO... like a “Band of Brothers (and sisters)” we look out for each other... or should.

That doesn’t mean I don’t get a bit pissed when I skip out on a paid day of work, drop my kid off at an expensive daycare, cancel the only personal ice climbing day I would have had the next day (since I post-poned all family duties), then walk uphill for 4 hours to find out someone just didn’t want to walk down on their own despite being fully capable to do so...

I do it for the very real reality that this person (or persons) may truly be in dire need and maybe I can help them. And if I f’up or have some bad misfortune I would hope someone was coming for me.
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DaveR

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Re: Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2013, 08:53:49 PM »

then walk uphill for 4 hours to find out someone just didn’t want to walk down on their own despite being fully capable to do so...

Dman if this is true is he going to be charged for the helicopter ride? I'm talking now as a taxpayer, I'm pissed that my taxes paid to fly him off just because he didn't want to walk down.
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DLottmann

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Re: Lincoln's Throat call out
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2013, 09:11:33 PM »

That’s up to NH Fish & Game to make the recommendation. I don’t know. I’ve been told 2nd hand that he ditched his pack full of gear as it was "to hard to move through the Krumholtz." Also he was checked out and had no injuries, not even frostbite, and that he was planning on walking down the trail under his own power.

This is 2nd hand info and not verified, but it leaves me wondering why he wasn’t out of the woods before 2pm since he was mobile... he had to hike up a short distance back to the ridge where the helicopter could easily get him... I know if I was cold I would never stop moving towards safety once it was light out...

I can only assume there is something here I don’t know, and probably won’t ever find out. That is the case with many of these types of rescues I find. Probably better to stick to the old military saying;

“Our job is not to ask why but to do and die”.

There is another side to the whole “charging for rescue” argument. In the very recent past I was a supporter of charging folks for rescues when they were caused by reckless conduct or blatant unpreparedness. Hearing some of the more senior MRS members, guys with HUNDREDS of rescues spanning decades, opinions on the matter, which were completely against my initial thoughts has swayed me the other way. The basic argument is this...

If we charge for rescues people who actually should call for one will delay calling for fear of being charged. Hours later, when they realize it truly is life or limb they will decide the price of a rescue is worth not dying. Now, MRS and other S&R groups will rally many hours later than they would have, and attempt to carry out a more dangerous rescue at night or in worsening avalanche conditions. It really is a dilemma.

One one hand charging folks for rescues might prevent some people from being idiots.

One the other hand it also might prevent people who just had an unexpected emergency call, until later, putting rescuers at more risk.

I don’t know the answer, other than maybe we should all re-read FoTH. ;)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 09:14:37 PM by DMan »
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