Author Topic: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?  (Read 3744 times)

Offline kenreville

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2014, 07:57:35 PM »
If you're lucky you will die of hypothermia so you don't have to lump them back out when they're all soaked and frozen.
I camped at temperature under minus 20 for six years and I never had a problem with cold. I used a sleeping bag rate minus 12, I climbed la pomme d'or and in the night that we went out, it was close to minus thirty in the valley.

I told you what I used for my set up and I never had a problem. I think it is knowledge and experiences. I had a master degree in biology. In my field, I study the adaptation of animal to cold and there is many way to survive. I don't say try some thing hard with cotton, I just said try it ounce or twice and decide what you like.

I had a lot of fun and some time I was miserable because I made mistake. It is not to be the first, but just to know that some thing amasing is feasible and safe if we keep our mind open

You can study all day long with your "masters" in biology- you're still a fucking FOOL. Please stop insulting my intelligence. I have a BS in electrical engineering blah blah blah- BFD. Just because a person is booksmart, doesn't mean they know jackshit. Case in point- YOU. You wear cotton t-shirts in the the winter while climbing? You are a FOOL. PERIOD. NO NEED FOR ANY DISCUSSION. You are dismissed you moron.

Offline steve weitzler

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2014, 08:01:41 PM »
Gee Ken, how do you really feel.

darwined

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2014, 08:04:34 PM »
If you're lucky you will die of hypothermia so you don't have to lump them back out when they're all soaked and frozen.
I camped at temperature under minus 20 for six years and I never had a problem with cold. I used a sleeping bag rate minus 12, I climbed la pomme d'or and in the night that we went out, it was close to minus thirty in the valley.

I told you what I used for my set up and I never had a problem. I think it is knowledge and experiences. I had a master degree in biology. In my field, I study the adaptation of animal to cold and there is many way to survive. I don't say try some thing hard with cotton, I just said try it ounce or twice and decide what you like.

I had a lot of fun and some time I was miserable because I made mistake. It is not to be the first, but just to know that some thing amasing is feasible and safe if we keep our mind open
Couple cool ones tonight Ken?
You can study all day long with your "masters" in biology- you're still a fucking FOOL. Please stop insulting my intelligence. I have a BS in electrical engineering blah blah blah- BFD. Just because a person is booksmart, doesn't mean they know jackshit. Case in point- YOU. You wear cotton t-shirts in the the winter while climbing? You are a FOOL. PERIOD. NO NEED FOR ANY DISCUSSION. You are dismissed you moron.

Offline sneoh

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2014, 08:15:13 PM »
It is always a problem to wrote in an other language than mine. Even in french, it is hard to explain phenomena like conduction, radiation and convection to people who read the tag of a garment and make generalization.   
LL, just constructive advice - if terms like conduction, convection, and radiation best make the point you are trying to make, please go ahead and use them!  I bet more than 80% of the people here known enough of these terms to grasp your point.  Those who do not can easily find out if they are so inclined.  As someone had mentioned, you get into trouble when you offer up scenarios (thinking they might be easier to understand) that do not really fit the science and when you over generalize.  Keep it straight, concise, and to the point and I believe people will be more receptive.

Thanks to Strand the birthday boy, I think A Wardrobe of Frozen Cotton T-Shirts is a WAY COOL route name.  Maybe someday I will get to use it :)

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline kenreville

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2014, 08:37:09 PM »
Gee Ken, how do you really feel.

Say what you want guys- when a so called pretentious, arrogant, pompous so called "climber" comes onto a site that is composed of other climbers with their own experiences (and might I say FAR superior skillsets), and has the audacity to proclaim that cotton is the way to go, then continues on spewing forth his "formal" education credits, it's time for a CALL OUT.

You don't know JACKSQUAT about thermodynamics Luukie. Amongst a shitload of other things. If you just shut your pie-hole no one would be the wiser. Until the day you're freezing your ass off and need to be rescued. Even then, I'm quite sure you'd tell your rescuers that they're doing it wrong.

Offline perswig

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2014, 07:29:30 AM »
LL, just constructive advice - if terms like conduction, convection, and radiation best make the point you are trying to make, please go ahead and use them!  I bet more than 80% of the people here known enough of these terms to grasp your point.

I dunno, Soon.  Things went a little pear-shaped for me with Ken's "pretentious", got lost totally with "audacity" and then "thermy...no, therma.......wait, maybe theremin?...whatever, that long word in the 2nd paragraph". 

I caught up, sorta, with "shitload" and "pie-hole".  Those are good.
Carry on!

Dale
If it's overhanging, I'm probably off-route.

Offline WanderlustMD

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2014, 10:17:16 AM »
Ditto wiregate biners and skinny slings.

Offline strandman

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2014, 11:16:53 AM »
100% Ken..fuck'm

I know a few people on this site who can join a discussion of thermodynamics  :o

BTW i have an advanced degree in new routing, does that help ?

Offline sneoh

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2014, 02:44:46 PM »
All I know is Ken went thermodynamically ballistic :)
Carry on!

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Offline strandman

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2014, 03:58:08 PM »
Colin Fletcher said the 2nd law of thermodynamics should be  "give your balls some air"

Offline Jeff

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2014, 09:48:08 PM »
Colin Fletcher said the 2nd law of thermodynamics should be  "give your balls some air"

Plus a lot more than 1 for that, Strandman ;D LMFAO

Offline lucky luke

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2014, 01:11:49 AM »
Say what you want guys- when a so called pretentious, arrogant, pompous so called "climber" comes onto a site that is composed of other climbers with their own experiences (and might I say FAR superior skillsets), and has the audacity to proclaim that cotton is the way to go, then continues on spewing forth his "formal" education credits, it's time for a CALL OUT.

Pretentious, arrogant... It is what I think... you didn't bring any argument to your point of view.

A sponge??? a sponge absorb the water and keep the water inside the cotton layer. When you climb a route like Lincoln throat pretty fast, your T-shirt is going to be wet, but not the other hydrophobe layer (that means that the wool, which can loss 50% of his isolating capacity by conduction, or any other synthetic isolation, stay dry). You change the T-shirt and you still have a dry layer outside the cotton which is dry. Without sponge, the water migrate from a high concentration inside the first layer to a low concentration on the last layer, it is a flow of water and heat that you lost  As a beginer belay, he is waiting in the cold...wet because the water is not evaporated immediately, but slowly. Whit the cotton, you are dry because the other layer are hydrofuge and the water is absorb by the cotton.

Diver suit are made of polypropylene. The water is trap inside the coat and the cold water can touch the body. It is an application of the sponge technique.

cotton cause many accident due to hypothermia. Particularly those people who hike with jeans or climb without t-shirt.  But if you can take out your transpiration without deterioration of the isolation of the exterior layer..., you use the cotton's water retention as a sponge....an the other layer stay dry. So, as a sponge, cotton is good, as an exterior layer or isolation cotton is very weak. You can use a cotton t-shirt and an hydrophobe t-shirt under thermal imaging cameras and see the heat loss of each.

Further more, I told people to try the cotton before in safe place. For example, bring six people without knowledge of this conversation to Havard cabin, asked them to wait for three hours in the cold without large movement like in a belay. Do the same experience with synthetic layer. You will see who is the fucking fool!!! In very cold day, you can probably measure a significant difference between the cotton (warmer) and the synthetic (hypothermia). You are going to have a deep understanding, not an assumption without understanding of the process.   

Deep understanding and superficial knowledge. It is the debate here. I red the sponge principle in a book from Everest from around 1960. Cotton act as a "water layer" that air can not traverse. an other point of discussion is the use of plastic bag in climbing shoes to prevent the insolation of the boot to be wet. Some agree, some not.

Note cotton can be very dangerous. In a case where it is very windy and you have to keep the wet t-shirt on you, you risk a lot. Other technique are also important to stay warm. In general, a beginer wait an hours at the bottom of the cliff or more. Don't compare yourself with experience climber who start in fifteen minutes. It is why I said previously that some solution are good for some one and not for other.


reference: see the text on familarity heuristic. every body do it, so it most be true... not always true.

DLottmann

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2014, 08:47:06 AM »
Shouldn’t be wasting my time here but:

Lucky Luke: water conducts heat away from the body faster than air. A wet t-shirt on warm skin will transfer heat from the skin to cold environment faster than a dry t-shirt, lowering a person’s body temperature quickly.

You can use big words and write long paragraphs.

You’re still wrong about cotton.

Offline OldEric

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2014, 09:32:03 AM »
Shouldn’t be wasting my time here but:

Lucky Luke: water conducts heat away from the body faster than air. A wet t-shirt on warm skin will transfer heat from the skin to cold environment faster than a dry t-shirt, lowering a person’s body temperature quickly.

You can use big words and write long paragraphs.

You’re still wrong about cotton.

apparently too big and too long for you to comprehend.  LL agrees with most of what you are saying but he has explained how he has made cotton work for him despite that and the advantages doing that provide him.  But you are so stuck in your conventional viewpoints (and  your take on LL and cotton is just the tip of the ice berg as far as that goes) that you can't think outside the box.

DLottmann

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Re: how do YOU cut weight from your kit?
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2014, 09:47:58 AM »
...advantages doing that provide him.  But you are so stuck in your conventional viewpoints (and  your take on LL and cotton is just the tip of the ice berg as far as that goes) that you can't think outside the box.

It’s assumed advantages. And I get what he is saying. The trade-off is a loss of energy/heat even if it helps keep his outer layers minutely drier...

reference: see the text on familarity heuristic. every body do it, so it most be true... not always true.

It’s not “Familiarity Heuristic”, it’s "Social Proof" that you are referring too;

Social Proof is the idea that an action is correct because other people are doing it. (McCammon, 2002)

Familiarity/Non-event Feedback Loop: McCammon (2002) pointed out that many accidents happen in familiar terrain. People often feel comfortable in familiar areas. They let there guard down or base their current decisions on past experience. The trap here relates to the “Non-event Feedback Loop” in decision making. When decisions result in no accident, people believe that they made the best choice. The person may have simply been “lucky”.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 09:49:33 AM by DMan »