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[lucky luke]

card is just to pay search and rescue and to prove that they are useful.

MSR is necessary, but it is a climbing tradition that skill people help non skill people to get out of a problem. They can help in three way, first by making a rescue, second by teaching technique and third by bringing them where just one technique doesn't work. In climbing hard you want to reach the summit to be accept in a group; in climbing safe you want to come back from amazing experience in the wild.

Accessibility, as using bolt, fix line, etc, gave a false sensation of invulnerability to beginner. Those who have less money will think that in paying a card, they will pay the invulnerability. And those who make money with stupid climber will place more equipment to gave them a false sensation of power.  That is wrong for safety. (institutionalisation of climbing as a sport with ethic and competition, like sport climbing, are not placing bolt for safety...it is a sport different than climbing; the overlapping of an institutional sport and a sport outside the bondary manage by people are dangerous) 

There is not a lot of accident by people who hike the Mt Washington to loose wait, as a personal chalenge...and it is not those kind of person who had accident. Most of the time, it is those who have a superficial knowledge of what is climbing a mountain who risk two much.

[JBrochu]

I thought I heard it all before, but fixed lines on Lions Head?

I like how that group was seemingly unprepared, but somehow remembered to bring a SPOT device. How do you not bring a map but instead bring a SPOT device?

$25 for rescue insurance is a pretty good deal!   

[markvnh]

Frik,

You're right they probably won't pay for rescue insurance - then they should be billed the full cost of the rescue if "help" is called out. I hope I never have to use my AAC insurance and can guarantee I'd have to be in an immediate life threatening situation to use SPOT (which I don't own) or dial 911 (which most times I leave my phone in the car).

Which doesn't mean that I'd never use help - I'd just try and get myself / partners outta the situation without help first. Which every time I see stuff like this local I think back to Doug Scott essentially crawling from the summit of the Ogre with two broken legs. Saw his slide show once and it was epic.

Mark

[strandman]

Maybe not..but  if they caught caught in some shit and had to pay..maybe think twice.

I think that the Rangers should be able to close the mountain down....then if you go up and get whacked,,you pay

[eyebolter]

Technology does create a false sense of security; it is however, not the issue here (these four could be dead had it not been for that call-- which didn't go out until after dark, this speculation can be endlessly debated). 

I think the cell phone IS the issue here.  Dollars to doughnuts those guys would not have been up there in the pre-cellphone era.   

[eyebolter]

I thought I heard it all before, but fixed lines on Lions Head?

I better get on it next time it gets fixed!  That way I won't have to carry all those ice screws up there....

[pappy]

OK, the old dumb guy needs educating again: What is a SPOT device?

[strandman]

Made famous the that idiot a few years ago who got  stuck in a slot in Utah...personal locater beacon

[sneoh]

I think that the Rangers should be able to close the mountain down....then if you go up and get whacked,,you pay

This appears like a reasonable & good idea.
What are the counter issues/points? (I am sure there are)

[The other tomcat]

" Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement". At one point or another I have made many of the same mistakes, most of the time just got lucky. Whiteout, nightout, avalanche and various combinations thereof.

It's fun and easy to criticize these incidents, especially when you live in the valley and can just go another day. For these dreaded "people from away" it isn't always as easy an option. Pretty much nobody buys softshells, hardshells,layering systems, cotton tee shirts, plastic boots, beacons and wands, maps, compasses etc with bluebird days in mind. They may only get a few days of winter to use the stuff. Not saying they didn't make a bad call, I guess some of you never have.

What are YOUR stories and memories made up of? The days you greased up Glass Menagerie, or struggled up -20 gully? I know my answer.

Before any fee system goes in place I'd like to see the paperwork on how they come up with the "costs".

Edit to add: While I typed, sneoh added his comment. Ever seen that video where Kevin Mahoney talks about what a great training area this is for the greater ranges, you go out in bad conditions, -30 etc...? You would really want rangers to be able to close the mountain? Really?

P.S. I take a strip shirt just about any time I head up to the ravines, Gully #1 or any time I think I'll get soaked on the approach. Mine is Ibex wool, I've never come close to getting cold changing topless to a dry layer even below zero.

[sneoh]

Tom, you have a good point too but there are two parts to what John said, ie, "....then if you go up and get whacked,,you pay".

[strandman]

i don't know..maybe..maybe not. I guess I could see it happening on Washington more so than other mountains.. just saying that if it WAS closed and you went up anyway, your responsible    maybe that should happen anyway 

I do remember Bouchard saying the best alpine training was in NE because of it being "roadside"

[The other tomcat]

Problem as I see it Soon is the judgement call is made by people who really don't give a shit if you ever get out in the mountains. Is falling and breaking your leg less stupid than getting lost?

[The other tomcat]

Of course it happens more on Mount Washington vs. any single mountain out West or whatever, virtually all our budding alpinists must focus on one peak...

Standing by for lecture about Katahdin....

[strandman]

Breaking a leg may not be very bright but.....getting lost because you stayed to long.. well that's another story in my book. and yes EVERYBODY fucks up at somepoint.

Katahdin ? Is that a dangerous place