Author Topic: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week  (Read 1459 times)


Offline Admin Al

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2014, 11:23:23 PM »
snowboarder...

very interesting
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Offline neiceclimber

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2014, 08:53:02 AM »
Interesting, yes. An R3D2 avalanche not in my opinion, it just didn't have the mass, slope and length. As much as this might piss off the "core" skiers, there are just very few spots in north east that are capable to create an avalanche of R3 D2, and the trees around Jay is not one of them.

Offline perswig

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2014, 12:01:07 PM »
Hmmm, significant amount of consolidated snow over obvious ice runoff over ledge. 

What could possibly go wrong....?
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Offline neiceclimber

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2014, 07:48:08 PM »
I saw this once again elsewhere. On second viewing there's no way that was 80 - 100 feet wide, just look at the boarder if it was that big he'd look so tiny. Also noticed they say "possible R4," wtf if it was really that big you'd think they'd actually show the run out. Jeez, if they think that was D2, then the stuff coming off my roof would be R5 D4. Full run out, would destroy a car, breaks trees, and certainly would cause death and burial if caught under it.

Dale, we need to get these guys a Go Pro, get them on Dracula, or ski the Black Dike ASAP.

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2014, 08:33:20 PM »
IMO this was D2, it certainly could have "injured or buried" a skiier... so it rates a D2 rating...

The R scale, is "Relative to Path", and does not work for undefined avalanche paths like this...

Your entire roof avalanche would indeed be an R5, if you consider the roof to be the "path"...but may not be a D2...

I think most avalanche forecasters/professionals would have call this a D2 and left the R scale out of it...

D4 means it could destroy a train, so no D4's happening off of roofs neiceclimber :)

Offline neiceclimber

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2014, 11:17:00 PM »
fair enough Dman I really can't argue with your opinion. However, I can show you examples of D2's and then you can decide if that slide is similar. Here are just a few from areas I'm very familiar with.

http://www.cnfaic.org/accidents/Surprise_Bowl_Near_Miss_2013.pdf

http://www.cnfaic.org/accidents/Butchavalanchereport1-29-11.pdf

Now Dman I am not an avalanche expert, but I have hundreds of hours in continental, intermountain, and coastal snowpacks (mostly Alaska). Speaking from experience and observations I personally have witnessed many D1's, D2's (including 2 that I triggered, one remotely), and personally witnessed this http://www.cnfaic.org/accidents/HatcPk3_19_11.pdf 2 hours after I triggered a D1 on a peak just up valley and out of view on the map. Almost all slides I've personally seen were on moderate days, pits were dug for about 50% of those days, the other 50% of the time numerous hand pits and ski cuts were performed. The D2 that I triggered was on a low day five days after a storm in a shallow snowpack (for Alaska). I hit an isolated wind slab that propagated 40 feet then stepped down to tundra 500 or so feet above me and ran another 800 feet. while I didn't climb back up to investigate the crown I assume that the crown was 4-5 feet as that is how deep I dug to hit tundra. One could easily see the slide from across valley over a mile away.  IMO all the avalanches I have witnessed and have been involved in have been far more powerful than what was witnessed in the video.

I think you underestimate the power of my roof, pretty sure the thing has been throwing off the Richter scale all day.

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2014, 08:23:28 AM »
You guys are all nuts. You dig the holes,know its dangerous and go sking anyways.  that is the whole point of sking is to ski the pow. All the avi classes in the world won't save you if you are a powder hound.  the guys with the most credentials end up burried with the noobs eventually...  Blissfully unaware and burried or stack full of knowlege and burried it is all the same in the end......

Offline kenreville

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2014, 08:53:47 AM »
^^^^^^^^
Good point. Food for thought.

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2014, 09:57:35 AM »
My good bud from CO just got banged up pretty bad . This after telling me a few weeks ago how dangerous it was going to be out there with the new snow on top of the slick layer they had....

Offline Homeless Junkie

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2014, 02:55:37 PM »
 R2D2?? I've never heard of these classifications.  I took my avalanche course in Canada.  I've been taught sizes 1-5. Is the R and D something discussed after level 1 course?
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DLottmann

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2014, 05:08:25 PM »
You guys are all nuts. You dig the holes,know its dangerous and go sking anyways.  that is the whole point of sking is to ski the pow. All the avi classes in the world won't save you if you are a powder hound.  the guys with the most credentials end up burried with the noobs eventually...  Blissfully unaware and burried or stack full of knowlege and burried it is all the same in the end......

This is a weak argument IMO, as there is so much to learn about snow ANY more info that can help make a better decision is good info in my book.

Also, 11/14 avalanche fatalities on Washington were climbers, not skiiers...

While we may be "powder hounds" realizing that the snow-pack is "more" stable on this aspect/elevation rather than "this" aspect/elevation may be all you need to still have a great day with little consequence... granted when we get cocky we make mistakes, as all high risk sports will prove... Here's an epic powder day that is safe(r):

F

4F

1F

P

K

Without a formal avy class (or some self-study) who would know what the hell I'm talking about... sure... sluffing may be an issue today...

R2D2?? I've never heard of these classifications.  I took my avalanche course in Canada.  I've been taught sizes 1-5. Is the R and D something discussed after level 1 course?

What you probably learned was the Destructive Potential Scale, which is most useful for recreationists...

The "R" scale is the "Relative to Path Scale"... it accounts for how much of the defined avalanche path slide (horizontal extent of the crown, depth of fracture, how far did the debris go, etc)...

R1 0-20%
R2 20-40
R3 40-60
R4 60-80
R5 80-100%

Most useful if you know the feature... i.e. "Right Gully slid R3 yesterday"... if you don't know how big Right Gully is you have no idea how destructive that might have been... is right gully 100 feet long or 2000 feet long with a huge start zone?

Helpful for forecasters, and advanced recreationists... i.e, if things are being reported R3+ then we are well into winter and we should manage travel in run outs accordingly...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 05:10:59 PM by DMan »

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2014, 07:42:11 PM »
 It's not an argument. It's a statement. Yer gonna die simply because you spend more time in the zone. I just talked to my friend Alex who has been laying on the couch for 2 weeks waiting for knee surgery after getting caught in a big slide and thrashed through the trees. He was with a level 2 instructor that day. none of the big words helped them  and they all feel very fourtunate to be alive and no one had any serious spinal or life threatening injuries. The noob takes risks because they do not know any better. The expert takes risks because they think they have the situation under control. The end result is the same  8)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 08:30:44 PM by tradmanclimbz »

Offline tradmanclimbz

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2014, 07:46:15 PM »
I am talking the big picture. Most of the avi pros and incidents are out west. most of the victims are skiers, boarders and snowmobilers. Of course climbers fall to the same forces that take the skiers. We climb in winter. it snows in winter and we want to climb despite the snow that the skiers and riders want to have their epic day in......
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 08:29:43 PM by tradmanclimbz »

Offline kenreville

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2014, 08:29:56 PM »
You guys are all nuts. You dig the holes,know its dangerous and go sking anyways.  that is the whole point of sking is to ski the pow. All the avi classes in the world won't save you if you are a powder hound.  the guys with the most credentials end up burried with the noobs eventually...  Blissfully unaware and burried or stack full of knowlege and burried it is all the same in the end......

This is a weak argument IMO, as there is so much to learn about snow ANY more info that can help make a better decision is good info in my book.

Also, 11/14 avalanche fatalities on Washington were climbers, not skiiers...

While we may be "powder hounds" realizing that the snow-pack is "more" stable on this aspect/elevation rather than "this" aspect/elevation may be all you need to still have a great day with little consequence... granted when we get cocky we make mistakes, as all high risk sports will prove... Here's an epic powder day that is safe(r):

F

4F

1F

P

K

Without a formal avy class (or some self-study) who would know what the hell I'm talking about... sure... sluffing may be an issue today...

R2D2?? I've never heard of these classifications.  I took my avalanche course in Canada.  I've been taught sizes 1-5. Is the R and D something discussed after level 1 course?

What you probably learned was the Destructive Potential Scale, which is most useful for recreationists...

The "R" scale is the "Relative to Path Scale"... it accounts for how much of the defined avalanche path slide (horizontal extent of the crown, depth of fracture, how far did the debris go, etc)...

R1 0-20%
R2 20-40
R3 40-60
R4 60-80
R5 80-100%

Most useful if you know the feature... i.e. "Right Gully slid R3 yesterday"... if you don't know how big Right Gully is you have no idea how destructive that might have been... is right gully 100 feet long or 2000 feet long with a huge start zone?

Helpful for forecasters, and advanced recreationists... i.e, if things are being reported R3+ then we are well into winter and we should manage travel in run outs accordingly...

Gotta say, that looks like a boatload of gibberish.