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Author Topic: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week  (Read 1013 times)

DLottmann

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2014, 08:34:51 PM »

It’s true those who spend more time in avalanche terrain are more likely to get caught at some point. Can’t argue that. However, most avi incidents are out west because there is exponentially more people traveling in avalanche terrain.

Let’s focus on our home turf...

Over the last 10 years we’ve had 5+ avalanche fatalities, all climbers, all without any avalanche education...

I’ll be bold and generalize, but East coast climbers often neglect some basic snow savy-ness but can throw down on Grade 5 ice...

My only real point here is technical ice climbers can benefit from a AIARE 1 course. I know because 100% of the ice climbers I’ve had in courses over the last 4 years have commented how eye opening the course was for them. Seasoned vets with 20+ years climbing BIG routes, names that are very common in the guidebook, folks who took an avalanche course 8+ years ago and wanted a refresher... they all walk away with a renewed sense of how to manage this risk that is inherent to our sport, be it climbing or skiing...

It’s not “big words” that matter, but I have watched skilled ice climbers ignore classic warning signs and die or break femurs...

At the end of every course it is stressed that we are not safer for having taken the course. We need quality experience to be able to relate what we think we know with what is real...

You are right “All the avi classes in the world won’t save you”... but to shamelessly steal a phrase from our resident deep thinker “A deep understanding” can help you make better decisions... I know I climbed ice for years in Tucks & Huntington under the belief that “Moderate” meant I was safe... I now know how to conduct quick assessments like hand shears, better intrepret what I read in the avalanche advisory to pick my line, avoid more hazardous terrain, and stay tuned to the current weather to determine the trend... just recognizing wind slabs takes experience which can be accelerated by a formal avalanche course, but as I implied already, “safer” is a really tough thing to ascertain...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 08:39:05 PM by DMan »
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2014, 08:47:29 PM »

I am by no means demeaning the class. takeing it is a great idea but I will go out on a limb and say that the instructor may have a greater chance of getting chopped than anyone else in the class simply because of more time spent in the zone.

Dman. I have zero formal climbing or mountain travel training. I was soloing @ the north end last sunday licking my wounded pride from backing off Repentance at the start of P2. we soloed a short ice wall and then waded left along a slopeing ledge covered with deep snow  to a  short yellow ice wall. My gut feeling was this snow is setting on top of ice and could probobly slide and flush us off. Of course we did it anyways...... BINTD when i went up on to the ravines I was always very nervous on P2 of pinnacle when it had a lot of snow on it... any truth to my concerns?
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neiceclimber

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2014, 08:55:18 PM »



 


F

4F

1F

P

K

.

It is gibberish and pedantic, it's the holy grail of snow pit layers.

Dman, level 1 is to scare the piss out of you. Level 2, informs you how mentally handicapped your previous life was and why. Level 3 allows you the advanced knowledge to pass this along to others with big words and flashy charts (I kid I have the up most regards to forecasters).   

edit to add: both you guys jumped before I posted this.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 09:17:07 PM by neiceclimber »
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neiceclimber

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2014, 10:36:47 PM »

However, most avi incidents are out west because there is exponentially more people traveling in avalanche terrain.

I think you have this backwards. It should read because there is exponentially more avalanche terrain. The amount of people randomly wondering around your home turf of MWV or more specific Mt. Washington far exceeds any given day of peaks I've visited beyond the Mississippi.  If you include the slides of the 'Daks, Crawford, Franconia,and to a lesser extent Smuggs and katahdin  Per capita and visitor usage, it is pretty safe to say the amount of avalanche incidents is next to well nothing.

 I'll give mad props to the excellent forecasters on Washington, they do their job well.
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neiceclimber

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2014, 11:00:09 PM »

I should also add that the above statements do not mean to belittle a person taking or wanting to take an avi course that lives on the east coast or anywhere. It is totally something people should take and is a fascinating and a great educational experience that unlike other avenues of life one can never be fully understood. I just post this stuff because I feel many on the east coast suffer from "Napoleon" complexes and feel the need to justify themselves against other areas. Also this is not a personal jab at Dman or anyone, I admire his drive to help others and his willingness to engage in these conversations. 
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kenreville

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2014, 10:08:36 AM »

Well that was well said, neiceclimber.
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lucky luke

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2014, 07:22:03 PM »

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=UU3nol1EnZLYjgS1NtJeRkWQ&feature=c4-overview&v=LiOpkhF3Tsc

I think that the guy on the snowboard had the best courses of avi in the world.

The snowboarder jump and have a big impact on the snow to start the avalanche. It is not trigered by the human weight. Futhermore, it is not snowing. It is obvious that the risk of avalanche is bigger after one or two days because of the transformation of the snow crystal. Surprisingly, in mt washington we have extreme condition in the snow storm and, with the blue bird sky, a lower avy danger.

A course where the people can trigger avalanches, even on a roof as it happen to me or atificially man made condition, is a most.

As it was said previously, there is not a lot of death when the climber was burry in Mt Washington and it is more the fall which is dangerous. 
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DLottmann

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2014, 08:34:55 PM »

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=UU3nol1EnZLYjgS1NtJeRkWQ&feature=c4-overview&v=LiOpkhF3Tsc

I think that the guy on the snowboard had the best courses of avi in the world.

The snowboarder jump and have a big impact on the snow to start the avalanche. It is not trigered by the human weight. Futhermore, it is not snowing. It is obvious that the risk of avalanche is bigger after one or two days because of the transformation of the snow crystal. Surprisingly, in mt washington we have extreme condition in the snow storm and, with the blue bird sky, a lower avy danger.

A course where the people can trigger avalanches, even on a roof as it happen to me or atificially man made condition, is a most.

As it was said previously, there is not a lot of death when the climber was burry in Mt Washington and it is more the fall which is dangerous.

If you've followed the winter we've had you'd know we've been dealing with Persistent Slabs, instabilities that last for days, sometimes weeks after the storm... and the danger rating has reflected that... Don't focus so much in Storm Slab or Persistent Slab... the difference is important.
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darwined

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2014, 08:43:00 PM »

Is it fair to say that the recent warmup has reset the snowpack?  Could faceting still be a concern with the cold temps forecasted?
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lucky luke

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2014, 11:27:02 PM »

Is it fair to say that the recent warmup has reset the snowpack?  Could faceting still be a concern with the cold temps forecasted?

I like to hear about ridge, with or without snow pack, vertical ice/slope, mountain valley and trees showing the most obvious path of the avalanches.

If you climb pinacle, and you climb at right....it is dangerous.

If you climb the grade three + vertical section to the bolt anchor...is it so dangerous????

Second pitch, I climbed close to the fracture line by the left. I cut step so if there is an avalanche on the right, I will stay on the border of it. After that it is too hard and hasardous to describe.
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2014, 05:50:03 AM »

What bolt anchor? pinnacle has a bolt anchor?
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DLottmann

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2014, 08:12:46 AM »

Is it fair to say that the recent warmup has reset the snowpack?  Could faceting still be a concern with the cold temps forecasted?

Unfortunately no. In some areas these faceted layers developed into Depth Hoar, which is simply a very aggressive facet. These advanced facets resist change, so they become “persistent”. The rangers mentioned in a bulletin recently how the rain did not percolate deep enough to destroy this layer, some the Depth Hoar is preserved in some places. Often these type layers can persist for the majority of a season until they either avalanche, or we enter Spring and warmer temps great the conditions for them to finally stabilize. These deeper weaknesses have fallen off the priority in the last few days with new concerns being closer to the surface wind slabs...The best place to check to see if they are still around is the bulletin.

http://www.mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/

Just reading this bulletin a few times a week can be quite educational...
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lucky luke

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2014, 10:14:52 AM »

What bolt anchor? pinnacle has a bolt anchor?

It is on the rock on the left. Some year, it can be hard to clip in because the ice didn't go so far, but it is pretty safe. If you look at the shape of the gully, you will see that the lower place his on the right where people exit generally. As in a river, the snow follow the path of least resistance and will be fall from left to downward right.

Above, where it is always very scary, there is a fracture line of five feet some year, but not close to the anchor where the snow is blow by the wind. Above that it is very tricky. Or you follow the gully and it is very windy or you cross to the right and try to find path with more resistance, where the wind blow the snow. I bail from the second pitch in some condition.
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DLottmann

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2014, 10:22:19 AM »

Isn't that the pin anchor? Are you sure you mean bolts Champ?
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lucky luke

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Re: Skiier triggered slide in VT last week
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2014, 11:22:04 AM »

Isn't that the pin anchor? Are you sure you mean bolts Champ?

could be a pin anchor, yes thanks.
it look safe with a couple of ice screw.
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