What would you do?

[ralbert20]

I think this has been brought up at least a dozen times, but I don't feel like searching, so I am going to ask again...

If you were to see a father/ son being SUPER unsafe, would you say something? Here is the situation: While leading Chia on Saturday, I noticed a pair next to me TRing Chia Right. The son, on the ground, seemed confused, and not really clear on his belay duties, and was asking a lot of basic questions. His dad was leading/ setting up the TR. He lowered, and then the son got on the climb. Now, Chia Right is about 120-130 feet long, so you can't TR it on one 60m rope, which means you have to pass the knot. Usually no big deal, as long as you know how to do it. Well, clearly this party did not know how to, and while his son WAS ON THE PILLAR, the dad said, "You are ok where you are, right? Hang on, I AM GOING TO TAKE YOU OFF BELAY AND PASS THE KNOT."

I almost lost it right there, but I felt from the conversations he was having with his son, that I was going to be in for a very heated/ possibly physical debate if I were to say something, so I chose not to, and hoped that I would not have to be picking up the pieces of a teenager...

So, I ask again, what would you do?

-Rob

[DaveR]

I would speak up then if they die its not on my conscience.

[markvnh]

Rob,

Damn. I guess even if you think it's gonna be confrontational - you still have to say something in a polite way. If they choose to ignore then there's no bad karma gonna come your way as you tried. I've been in similar situations and for the most parts the other people are asses. I did my part though and walked away.

Mark

[DLottmann]

How old do you think the son was? Not that that would really change my response... but it would look something like this;

“Sir, why don’t you hang on a second and I’ll come show you a way to do that without putting your son in harms way...”

I’ld then suggest he get a refresher on his rope skills with either a very seasoned vet or a guide, and wish him a great rest of the day climbing...

[darwined]

I'd call him out.  If he ruffled his feathers, I'd kick his goddamn ass!  Just kidding, I'd prolly just find another spot to climb.  If he followed me to the spot, I'd go home and rant on NECLIMBS. 

[ralbert20]

" If he followed me to the spot, I'd go home and rant on NECLIMBS.  "

lol

Seriously though, all good suggestions. I normally would be totally confrontational, as long as it was 2 adults. The son was about 13? 14? It just seemed like a really bad situation because then you put someone in the position to lose face in front of their kid, which makes people even more irrational usually.

That being said, I suppose being called out for stupid behaviour is better than dying/ getting seriously hurt...

[rbuels]

Whoa.  I was leading Chia as this was going on, so I saw them over there, but I didn't see the knot-passing shenanigans.  Yikes!

[Homeless Junkie]

 I wouldn't say a damn thing.. but I've witnessed the result of speaking up. The conversation was about tying a masterpoint into a TR into make the anchor redundant. I wanted to cause bodily harm to the ignorant party and wasn't even involved in the conversation. Not only does nobody listen but they act like poopyheads

 It could've been worse. Imagine if it was a man and woman TRing Chia.

[ralbert20]

"tying a masterpoint into a TR into make the anchor redundant"

Wait? Actually IN the TR? What do you mean? So that the knot couldn't pass through or something silly like that?

[DLottmann]

"tying a masterpoint into a TR into make the anchor redundant"

Wait? Actually IN the TR? What do you mean? So that the knot couldn't pass through or something silly like that?

I'm sure he means "Tying a masterpoint into a TR <anchor> to make the anchor redundant".

Simple example is using a sliding X vrs tying a longer sling off with limiting knots or an overhand...

Depending on the anchor this may not be a big deal... but some redundancy is always good...

[lucky luke]

I think this has been brought up at least a dozen times, but I don't feel like searching, so I am going to ask again...

If you were to see a father/ son being SUPER unsafe, would you say something?

In yosemite, we climb two party an we met a son and dad party on royal arches. The man was not good climber make problem of route finding and pull on gear in a 5.6. he told his son to do dangerous think and his anchor was not solid. In a fall, he probalby go down to the belay as his son, hundred pounds lighter, will go to the last protection if it holds.

In my opinion, save the kid. I understand that his father want to be son's hero and, if he promess a spectacular adventure with his son, he had to climb it. I talked to him and to his son...to be safer. i asked my partner to climb a party over them an a party under them, so the child will be safe. My ex-partner want to bail, leaving the kid in danger. I also bail, should have ask to the father to climb with them...but I didn't think at it because we need two rope to bail and my party was more my concern than an other party. I asked to have a phone and call 911 to have advice...

At the bottom I talk to the randger at camp four and I think that they saw the party in the cliff. The next day, the father was taking a climbing course and I think that the randger do some thing.

  As much I am for a party father and son/daughter (remember half dome team with a 11 girl), as much I am for safety. But the kid don't know the consequences of an accident and we most protect them...in my opinion. 

[JBrochu]

Saw a father/son team get in trouble on Standard on Whitehorse back maybe 12 or 15 years or so. We were at the threaded anchor when we heard dad crater up above lunch ledge. Quickly climbed up to find he had gone up to the 5.7 variation then tried to go around left instead of moving right past the old bolt. His son didn't really know how to belay and he fell for quite a distance and we think he had 2 broken ankles.

Lucky for him there was a group of 3 that had just finished the Wilderness EMT course and they had several sams splints and other gear. Between that party and my group we got him down to lunch ledge and all splinted up in time for MRS to take over. His son was wearing a Whillans harness and it was threaded incorrectly -- a really scary situation all and all.

We ended up putting him on a guides back (little guy I think his name was Ian) and tying all our ropes together and lowering them to the ground in one shot passing the knot a couple of times. Even with MRS taking over for the lowering it was still a bear passing the knot each time. I think we could have managed it but I would have been super nervous doing it so glad MRS showed up.

[DLottmann]

Knot passing can be a bear... there is a slick trick to pass a flat overhand through a large carabiner that is pretty awesome in a situation like you just described... don't think I could describe it well here but it is fast and involves nothing fancy... works well for lighter loads (like lowering 2 people down the slabs)....

[rbuels]

Regarding the original TR knot-passing from the beginning of the thread, the best method I ever saw for dealing with that is to actually rig it so you don't have to knot-pass at all. 

Leave the knot at the apex of the toprope setup, near the anchor.  Don't pull the rope through to get to an end at the bottom like you normally would.  Then, have the climber attach to the middle-ish part of the rope that is hanging at ground level using a figure 8 on a bight and one or two lockers.

Then, as you belay, the knot won't get to the belayer until the climber is already at the anchor.

Downsides to this, of course, are that the climber has to be careful not to poke the trailing piece of rope with their crampons, and also that they are on the rope with lockers instead of a bomber rewoven figure 8.  But if you're feeling sketched out by the lockers, could do 2 opposite and opposed.

Edit: clarified that I was talking about the original TR knot-passing business.

[DLottmann]

rbuels, we are not talking about a TR setup here, but lowering someone(s) down 600 feet from Lunch Ledge by tying 3 or 4 60m ropes together... this can be done with a large carabiner and using the Munter-Hitch to lower... if you connect the ropes with flat-overhands (no other know that I know of can be "passed through" a Munter... which is the trick I am referring to...

As for dealing with passing knots in a extended TR session like you are referring to the simplest method would be to install a 2nd belay device below the knot... you should be able to maintain a brake hand while switching devices, especially if the climber doesn't need to be weighting the rope while you switch... so they are always on belay and it is quick... no fancy load releasing knowledge needed...