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Author Topic: inexperience, skilfull, competent  (Read 1157 times)

lucky luke

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2014, 12:33:46 PM »

LL-there's nothing wrong with pushing your limits ?!  If no one ever pushed, there would be no new routes. Do you EVER fall ? 

Just because a route is "runout" doesn't mean it's deadly

Crag discussion. Accustomed to defend my point of view, I practically miss your point and was close to gave a superficial answer of what I feel.

If I understand the question in my words. People push there limits every day and open new route, new chalenge.  My limit is it the limit of every body else? It is not because I am at my limit that some run out route is not under the limit of someone else.

My limit is not the limit of some one else. But if I am in a party, I will have to consider the limit of the party. In some case, I will be the stronger and other place the weaker. To be honest with my friend, I think that I should be honest with me. I bail in a 5.6 one day, under the large smile of Base. I was not at my limit, but I didn't understand the move. He was able to do it, but we didn't have time.

There is time to push my limit and there is time to push the limit my sport. For me, I can't expect to push the limit of the sport. If I am the first at a cliff and open a new route, I didn't push my limit. I just do a route where no body try it. This is particularly true if I take more than three try. When I work a route, it is to do a project where I should do it clean, without falling, on sight, and without beta. I can work a route on sport or top roping. I work a route when the danger of a fall is very low. it can be on lead in thin air for example.

I look at gym, sport and boulder climber and I have an impression that they want to be good. They want to meet the standard of those who push the limits of the sport. My reflex is to say: Hey, you are going to kill yourself if you climb a 5.10 like odyssey of an artichoke in canon, and can't do the 5.7 run out because it is a run out slab. For most of them, it is an insult. I told them that they are not as good as they train in a gym. In fact, that they don't know there limits.

How can you evaluate your limit most be the next question I think. Old climber are good references as there limits decrease. They learned to push there limit, but also to be honest and train.

In some case, some climber just want to be in the cliff and enjoy the rock without pushing there limit. it is the case of parent with child and too much work in a week. They want to climb because the only think they have to think is a piece of rock of 3 feet x 3 feet and nothing else. They don't want to push there limit as competitor try to do.     


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strandman

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2014, 06:40:11 PM »

So to answer my question is --no ?

My competitive days are way gone..I just don't understand how you talk about competition, yet always onsite..Aren't you competing with yourself ?
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lucky luke

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2014, 07:22:40 PM »

So to answer my question is --no ?

My competitive days are way gone..I just don't understand how you talk about competition, yet always onsite..Aren't you competing with yourself ?

If your question is do you ever fall? the question is not interesting. Of course I felt, two times a year approximately. I climbed in remote area: that means just a photo of a cliff as big as canon with a line and a number. could be sand bag, off route, I had many close call and some good fall...and...what the goal if I felt or not if climbing means going in the wild and forget about all your problem to concentrate on a piece of rock of 3 feet by 3 feet. Are you better because you wrote NO.

But you you felt...so the question is more important for you. You felt and you climb hard. You establisha gain by defeating or establishing a superiority. You felt and you are doing deadly run out. In your head you make a demonstation that I can't push my limit. For you, I can't do deadly run out...and to be sure of your superiority, you asked the question if I compete agains myself.

In that last question the answer is no. If you look at the difference between these two terms, you will Understand
 
emulation: ambition to equal or excel
competition: strive to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others who are trying to do the same.

You are competitive because you are trying to make a superiority for an activity who don't need to be competitive. I don't try to be better than yesterday because yesterday I try to push my limit as much as today. And the success create an emulation, so I keep my motivation without thinking that I am better than yesterday, but just as the same fun as yesterday at my level. When I will loose that plaisir of climbing|: I will stop climbing.
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sneoh

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2014, 07:50:50 PM »

I just don't understand how you talk about competition, yet always onsite..Aren't you competing with yourself ?
My thoughts and rebuttal exactly.

It just seems contradictory to me that you, LL, places so much emphasis on onsights and yet denies any competition with yourself or your "old self".  Onsighting near one's limit is a journey of determination, self-doubt, maybe fear, concentration, mental acuteness, and perhaps even self punishment.  The joy of the "fight" can only be realized afterwards and never a sure thing until it is over.  That is why they are so memorable.
I hardly think John is trying to put you down or play up the air of superiority.  I believe he is just being truthful and at the same time puzzled by what you write.

And, yes, most of us climb with having fun near or at the very top of the list of reasons to climb, and have been at it for a long ime.
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lucky luke

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2014, 09:36:00 PM »

  Onsighting near one's limit is a journey of determination, self-doubt, maybe fear, concentration, mental acuteness, and perhaps even self punishment.  The joy of the "fight" can only be realized afterwards and never a sure thing until it is over.  That is why they are so memorable.

That it's! And I begin an other day. As I can't onsight a route two times, I choose an other. as the self-doubt decrease because I climb better, I climb a grade over. If one day, I am not in...I bail (not often, but it happenend).

Climbing hard...for me...stupid. I had as much fun onsighting whitney gilman than fugue. I have some dream, the nose was one of these. I just could go again and do it to know if I am able to climb it, but it won't be an onsight. 5.9 is it hard? The cliff is magic any way.

When I do a route a second time, my level of concentration felt. i Know that I can do the route, so it is not the same chalenge/fear. Climbing with an other partner, building a team, is more fun
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Admin Al

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2014, 07:42:28 AM »

And, yes, most of us climb with having fun near or at the very top of the list of reasons to climb, and have been at it for a long time.

++++++

if it's not FUN, what's the point?
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Al Hospers
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JBrochu

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2014, 07:51:35 AM »

++++++

if it's not FUN, what's the point?


I only do it for the chix. Nothing like hucking for a greasy mono doight to finish off that knarly 15-foot plastic fantastic, then calling take and leaning back to get a glimpse of my adoring fans spazzing in a fever of excitement.

It looks kind of like this...

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DGoguen

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2014, 08:44:05 AM »

I see you celebrating but where are the fans. Ha  ;D
Oh never mind, two right there.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 08:52:10 AM by DGoguen »
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Admin Al

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2014, 09:40:49 AM »

you guyz...
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Al Hospers
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strandman

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2014, 10:03:36 AM »

To emulate means to compare..LL you must be the most pure climber in the world  or in denial....You say that a serious routemust be only a form of competition....bullshit

I'm still trying to figure out how you "on sight a route twice"

Climbing has a factor of competition in it..wether with your self or with others...and someone else always climbs harder than you do..always

Years ago, Jim Erickson was a very pure climber..backing off any climb he fell off of. he did this until he started to free climb half Dome, where he went back over and over...perhaps you will find your Half Dome someday and get off this pedastal that you seem to be on
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2014, 11:00:40 AM »

folks with too many rules often climb in a bubble. Like ken Nichols doing the same route 10,000 times on top rope....
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strandman

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2014, 11:25:47 AM »

Ken's rules were and are whacked..i'm all for limiting bolts and stuff, but bringing 6 ropes and a dozen hooks to "lead" a route you have tr'd a million times is just silly  and then making everyone else do it that way     ???

Rule #1.. live to climb again (don't fuck up)
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2014, 11:43:07 AM »

hate to say but they also usually come from places with little rocks.....
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strandman

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2014, 11:47:55 AM »

Like Grit ???  The rules there have always been there..no pins, no bolts etc.. and some exceptions   ;)
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lucky luke

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Re: inexperience, skilfull, competent
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2014, 12:48:38 PM »

To emulate means to compare..LL you must be the most pure climber in the world  or in denial....You say that a serious routemust be only a form of competition....bullshit

I'm still trying to figure out how you "on sight a route twice"

Climbing has a factor of competition in it..wether with your self or with others...and someone else always climbs harder than you do..always

For you, climbing has a factor of competition.

for someone who compete in his work and want to rest, climbing has no factor of competition. You climb and forgot about every things else and when you come back to work, you are stronger to compete and do a good job. If you are a guide, you compete because climbing his your work, and you need clients. I climbed in remote area and, as the older client did, there was not a lot of people in the cliff. for years, I go and we were alone, me and partner, on three cliff. I learned to love climbing, to love the mountain and to respect other with or without skill.

emulation means: ambition to equal or excel. To equal, you have to know your level and know the level of the climb. It is a kind of comparison and the purpose of the thread I start. To stay motivate, you have to be some things different or a little bit harder. So, I can enjoy a climb with nice view and a women... Some deadly run out where I can forgot every all the problems in my life....climb harder than an other party (competition for sure)...

But I am not climbing hard to get a women. When I meed a partner, I most be confident on her and I test the climber in easy scary things. to know the limits of the team. some time I climb route that I will enjoy more than my partner and some other time where my partner will progress. The climber can progress in a 5.6 but also in a 5.12. So I will follow/lead in some condition.

I don't like to compete and I prefer climber who want to meet there goal than some one who will try to be better to compete with other. If i can help the climber to realize his goal and the climber do the same with me, if the goal is the same for both of us, the partnership is better

N.b. I wrote: As I can't onsight a route two times, I choose an other. 

 

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