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Author Topic: Ropes on Lions Head  (Read 2726 times)

old_school

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2014, 10:34:29 AM »

It is an aesthetic beautiful 11' corner of broken rock, crampon scratches, erosion and exposed roots. It should be done cleanly and purely, I agree.  Save the choss!! ;) lol
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 10:38:07 AM by old_school »
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lucky luke

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2014, 12:20:03 PM »

The concept of a "group leader" for a hike is another thing that has always blown my mind.

I am for a group leader in climbing as well as in hiking. Often accident happen not because the people are not skill, but because two good decisions make a bad decision, like auto road versus lion head. The responsability of knowing his partner, finding the good alternative and don't let your motivation over pass safety is hard. With my best partner, he his leading as I can took the sharp end of the rope on harder climb. 
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JBrochu

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2014, 02:45:21 PM »

One of the reasons people choose to go with a guide. Many folks suffer heading down the auto road which is twice as exposed as heading down Lions Head... Most have no map,compass, or skills using them...


Nothing personal, but I would rather suffer.

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steve4464

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2014, 03:54:37 PM »

I used this rope on Sunday coming down. I was third ( and last ;-) in our party to get there and was surprised to see them down climbing on a rope when I got there.

s it was long since dark when we arrived, at first I thought it might be helpful. But the rope, to me, was not in the best of shape  and the knots were very small if you have climbing gloves on, read -  hard to hold. Kinda zoning anyway, and thinking about beers and burgers at the Moat, I had already clipped my axe to my harness and begun descent when I realized it would been better to just down climb as usual.

I thought it kinda low end for a "guided" setup, more like some "regular" folks decided to put it up. Rope ethics notwithstanding, I don't think it will be there long, regardless.

Yeah, not on board with the need for fixed ropes on Lion's Head Winter... although, I have been fortunate enough to never have been waiting any more than a few minutes to get by other parties either....
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krankonthis

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2014, 05:00:52 PM »

"but because two good decisions make a bad decision,"
Im not a math genius but that does not add up.  Does two bad decisions make a good one?  If that's true I have made lots of good decisions.  ;)
Sam
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strandman

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2014, 07:27:09 PM »

One of the reasons people choose to go with a guide. Many folks suffer heading down the auto road which is twice as exposed as heading down Lions Head... Most have no map,compass, or skills using them...


Nothing personal, but I would rather suffer.

Because YOU also need  Deputy group Leader  as well    :(
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JBrochu

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2014, 07:47:15 PM »

The concept of a "group leader" for a hike is another thing that has always blown my mind.

I am for a group leader in climbing as well as in hiking. Often accident happen not because the people are not skill, but because two good decisions make a bad decision, like auto road versus lion head. The responsability of knowing his partner, finding the good alternative and don't let your motivation over pass safety is hard. With my best partner, he his leading as I can took the sharp end of the rope on harder climb.


The decision to go down the auto road was a good decision for us. We had a map and compass and sort of knew how to use them. (Very few people are truly expert you just don't get enough practice.) Problem is if you can only see 5 feet in front of your face it makes it really difficult -- plus the winds started really screaming and it would have been hard to even use the map without it getting ripped up/out of our hands.

Had we more intimate personal knowledge of the terrain navigating by compass might have been feasible, but at our then current level of experience and with the conditions that came out of nowhere we took the smartest decision. Better to suffer a little and get back home safely than turn into a permanent popsicle.

I've been up there a lot since then and never once caught in anything nearly as bad.

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This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption.
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DLottmann

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2014, 09:16:26 PM »


The decision to go down the auto road was a good decision for us. We had a map and compass and sort of knew how to use them. (Very few people are truly expert you just don't get enough practice.) Problem is if you can only see 5 feet in front of your face it makes it really difficult -- plus the winds started really screaming and it would have been hard to even use the map without it getting ripped up/out of our hands.

Had we more intimate personal knowledge of the terrain navigating by compass might have been feasible, but at our then current level of experience and with the conditions that came out of nowhere we took the smartest decision. Better to suffer a little and get back home safely than turn into a permanent popsicle.

I've been up there a lot since then and never once caught in anything nearly as bad.

There is really only 3 compass bearings that need to be known to get from the summit back to Lions Head in 10 foot visibility... I would never expect someone to actually figure those out from a map in the middle of harsh conditions, hence the need for a “White Out Navigation Plan” before getting caught in a white out... basically I figure out the sections above treeline from the warmth and comfort of my kitchen table before heading out somewhere I might need it... here’s my plan for Lion’s Head:

http://davidlottmann.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/route-card1.pdf

"Better to suffer a little and get back home safely than turn into a permanent popsicle.”

True, though the amount of exposure to NW winds while trying to descend the auto road could be deadly, when descending the summit cone in the correct direction could save a life... when it’s 80+ NW winds going down the auto road is a terrible choice, as you can be out of the wind in 200 yards if you know what you are doing (obviously experience helps here, as does preparation)...

I find solid map & compass, and actual navigation skills, a fading lost art that many more climbers would benefit from investing some time in...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 09:23:01 PM by DMan »
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tradmanclimbz

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2014, 09:33:46 PM »

if it is nasty up On the garden i always felt that headding down central or South gully was the best way out of the hunnington area.
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JBrochu

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2014, 10:00:12 PM »

A good descent if you climb Pinnacle is right from the top (before walking up the last bit to the Garden) you can walk right down to the top of the ice on Odell's, cross over the gully proper to the big flat rock ledge, then cross over into South and down. You obviously don't want to fall on much of that terrain though or you are going to pitch right over the Odell icefall.

 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 08:02:19 AM by JBrochu »
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Have a quiche, now, or maybe a tort.  You deserve it!
-bristolpipe

I like to keep things simple, even if it's faaaken painful and miserable.
-Stoney Middleton

This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption.
-Friar Tuck

Admin Al

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2014, 07:35:06 AM »

A good descent if you climb Pinnacle is right from the top (before walking up the last bit to the Garden) you can walk right down to the top of the ice on Odell's, cross over to gully to the big flat rock ledge, then cross over into South and down. You obviously don't want to fall on much of that terrain though or you are going to pitch right over the Odell icefall.

 

Isnt a better and faster choice off Pinnacle using the Escape Hatch?
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JBrochu

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2014, 07:59:59 AM »

A good descent if you climb Pinnacle is right from the top (before walking up the last bit to the Garden) you can walk right down to the top of the ice on Odell's, cross over to gully to the big flat rock ledge, then cross over into South and down. You obviously don't want to fall on much of that terrain though or you are going to pitch right over the Odell icefall.

 

Isnt a better and faster choice off Pinnacle using the Escape Hatch?

From the top of the climb it's only a couple of minutes down to the top of the Odell's ice. Then from there it's maybe a few more minutes to cross into South and descend.

I suppose if you're done for the day maybe it's a wash with Escape Hatch since Escape Hatch brings you out further down and near the trail. But if you're going to do another climb this is way faster imo. Escape Hatch is definitely safer but if you're comfortable descending stuff like Central and soloing the gullies this is fine.

Me and a friend used to go up Odell (just the ice) and down South then still get to Pinnacle 1st party. Then up Pinnacle and down this descent. Then pick one of the other gullies depending on what was open and descend Central. Then keep going if we were in shape.

Supposedly there is also a good walk-off descent on the north side of the Ravine but I never did it.
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-bristolpipe

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-Stoney Middleton

This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption.
-Friar Tuck

old_school

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2014, 08:11:58 AM »

probably should remove the ladder on the summer route while we are at it eh?   ;) :P
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JBrochu

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2014, 08:18:16 AM »


There is really only 3 compass bearings that need to be known to get from the summit back to Lions Head in 10 foot visibility... I would never expect someone to actually figure those out from a map in the middle of harsh conditions, hence the need for a “White Out Navigation Plan” before getting caught in a white out... basically I figure out the sections above treeline from the warmth and comfort of my kitchen table before heading out somewhere I might need it... here’s my plan for Lion’s Head:

http://davidlottmann.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/route-card1.pdf

"Better to suffer a little and get back home safely than turn into a permanent popsicle.”

True, though the amount of exposure to NW winds while trying to descend the auto road could be deadly, when descending the summit cone in the correct direction could save a life... when it’s 80+ NW winds going down the auto road is a terrible choice, as you can be out of the wind in 200 yards if you know what you are doing (obviously experience helps here, as does preparation)...

I find solid map & compass, and actual navigation skills, a fading lost art that many more climbers would benefit from investing some time in...

Looking at your map I think we took the auto road until Nelson Crag trail. From there conditions either improved or we were just less exposed but I remember it was much more comfortable once we left the auto road and the trail wasn't too hard to follow at that point. (This was 25+ years ago so hard to remember accurately.)

I agree that real map and compass skills are important. Also self-rescue and wilderness first aid, etc. The issue for weekend warriors is that to actually be proficient with all that stuff you have to practice it a lot and you would never actually get to go climbing. I'm not trying to downplay the importance of that stuff, I'm just saying taking a refresher every couple of years isn't going to cut it when you find yourself in deep shit.

So weekend warriors imo are almost always going to be taking on some more risk than someone who gets out almost every day and can practice a lot -- often getting paid to practice.

Thanks for the info about how bad the Auto Road can be in the wrong conditions. We thought it only sucked because it's so long and miserable to walk on, and until now I figured we had made the safest choice when maybe we didn't.
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Have a quiche, now, or maybe a tort.  You deserve it!
-bristolpipe

I like to keep things simple, even if it's faaaken painful and miserable.
-Stoney Middleton

This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption.
-Friar Tuck

lucky luke

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Re: Ropes on Lions Head
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2014, 12:07:30 PM »

"but because two good decisions make a bad decision,"
Im not a math genius but that does not add up.  Does two bad decisions make a good one?  If that's true I have made lots of good decisions.  ;)
Sam

two bad decision make an accident. the leader let a party go first and the party went to take good picture, so they cross a slab and trigger an avalanche ( central couloir last year)

two good decision and you have a conflict between two people and forget about the danger. If one guy said I am turning back...you can't leave him alone to keep the party and make your life in real danger.

One bad decision and the other people can avoid the accident by being alert and confident.

One good decision is the best for sure. 
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